This idea of paradise, where we go when we die, and false teaching.

An observation was made in Monday morning Bible study about where we go when we die. The statement excluded us from heaven by placing us in paradise, where we are held until the Harpazo or rapture, and then we, the church, are all taken up.

However, that is not what 2Corinthians 5 implies.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NASB 6) Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7) for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8) we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5 is the only place we find a reference like this, and, when we are in the mood, we use it to imply that it means in dying here, we take our next breath in the presence of Jesus. It is a common passage at funerals. Logic also tells me that if I absent from the Lord while in my body, then to be present would mean I am dead. I admit that I could read these passages as some future hope and speculation, and, without a context that would probably be true. That is why we have to look beyond the verse that is leaving us with gaps in our understanding and consider the whole of the thought. For us, that is 2 Corinthians 5:1-9.

2 Corinthians 5:1-9 NASB 1) For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2) For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3) inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4) For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5) Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 6) Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7) for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8) we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9) Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

• “the earthly tent” - Which happens to be our bodies.
• “which is our house is torn down,” - Equates to death.
• “ in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,”

Scripture tells us that all of creation groans, longing to be released from the damage placed upon them with the fall of man, and so do we.

So then, the context is about death and where we, as believers, go after death.

We say that, but apparently, we are not so convinced, as those same people who made the statement at last week's funeral will also tell you that there is a “paradise” for you to wait, much like we see in, "The Inferno" by Dante Alighieri. A fictional story in which people he knew, who had been negligent or criminal in the positions they held, were placed by him in horrific levels of hell until they could come to some form of repentance and then maybe be moved to a lesser hell.

Perhaps the problem lies in our not having multiple corroborating witnesses. Do we have other methods of corroborating Paul's assertion that there is a heaven awaiting us? The answer, though not so direct, is yes.

Such a statement comes from James 2:26a where we are told, “For just as the body without the spirit is dead,” From this I can ascertain that the body is just a useless hulk without the spirit or soul. However, denoting that the body is useless without the spirit does not answer the question as to where the soul goes as Paul did in his letter to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 NASB 42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43) it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44) it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Once released from the bondage of the body we recognize that our life merely continues with the Lord in Heaven, or the Eden that defines paradeisos.

Strangely, all three instances of paradise, found in the New Testament, use the same word – paradeisos. It is clear that what Jesus described for Lazarus was no park like setting, and we assume that this is the same place that the thief on the cross was taken.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

G3857 paradeisos / par-ad'-i-sos. A park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.

What does not make sense here is the definitions assignable to this word, because we assume that the thief went to Abraham's bosom as well.

Paul wrote about an experience he had. I too have had two of those experiences in my life. One happened while I was playing golf, so there is no chance I was asleep. However, for those seconds nothing else existed in my mind. The other was what I believe to be a dream, but it was so vivid that it exists in my mind as real. In it, Jesus came to me and laid my life out before me. I thought I would never forget this and chose not to write anything down. All I remember now is that He was there, that every detail of my life was explained to me, and that I awoke with such joy. I will say that having lived most of my life now, I am hard pressed to understand the joy aspect.

2Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul is telling us that he was caught up in a park-like setting, the place of future happiness – heaven, where Jesus is at.

The Apostle John had seen the most incredible vision when he saw into the heavens. In Revelation 2:7 he calls it paradeisos.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Having given some thought to this idea of paradise, it seems to me that we make the assumption or maybe connection with the story, which I happen to think were real people that Jesus had experienced, that we find in Luke chapter 16. There is no mention of paradise there, but there is the concept of a beggar now being comforted in Abraham's bosom, while the rich man, a Jew, was now in torment – in Hades.

Since this is lacking the terminology and the park-like setting, it is inappropriate and invalid as a witness and does not have a tie-in to the idea of paradise. As I mentioned a moment ago, the thief on the cross was told, you will be held in Abraham's bosom until I can get you out of there. No, he was invited into paradise, a park like setting, an Eden where Jesus could be found.

No, there is no paradise in hell, and, we know that Jesus snatched the keys to hell, fear and the grave, out of Satan's hands. (Yes, I said fear, because death has nothing less than fear attached to it.) Death has been conquered by Jesus and so has Satan. Since he does not seem to believe that, you may occasionally have to remind him and put him in his place through the name of Jesus.

I am hoping that you picked up on the fact that I am writing to those who should have an understanding of the things of God. Sadly, most of us in the church have no understanding at all. In saying that I am saying that we do not understand God's nature and character, and therefore attribute garbage to Him that He does not deserve.

If you don't know Him, you can. Merely start by saying, I believe in you, Jesus. You paid the price for me, to set me free and I accept you into my life. Trust me on this. Jesus Christ will flood into your life and start a process of changes that will boggle your mind if you let Him. I implore you to let Him, for time is short. Look around you, and you can see that.

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The topic of sheep won't go away. Matthew 25.

This topic of the sheep and goats won't go away; it just keeps popping up it's twisted little head.

Last Monday, this was the leaders opening statement,

“..if I am wrong with any of my statements, then you men stop me and correct me.”

He then proceeded to say,

“as we have been talking about, for weeks now, based on Dake's notes concerning the Millennium, the sheep we see in Matthew 25 are those who have helped Israel.”

This man was and still is, sporadically, a Mathematics teacher at a community college. Before that, he taught high school in a tough neighborhood. So he is adept at quelling loud mouths and rebellious talk, and, anything we say or do, is often taken as such. On several occasions he has loudly slapped the table as he brashly stated, that is my opinion, and I don't care what you say. Now get realistic. What is that supposed to mean? And, if it is not some arrogant attitude, then it is intended to intimidate those who are rebutting his opinions concerning scripture.

Later on that same week I ran into one of the men who did not make the study. I told him what the major topic was that morning. Immediately began his agreement with the thesis and got rather defensive of it. I tried to make him understand how and why this is wrong, but he refused to hear the truth. The sadder truth is that there are more people just like this, and false teachers, teaching the doctrine of demons, have created this confusion and prevented people from finding the truth in God's word.

Here is a clue to help you lead Bible study:

If you don't know what the answer is and can't find at least two scripture passages to validate what you are saying, then you are preaching opinion and conjecture. Your opinion may have a logical path, but it needs to designated as such and not spoken as though it is the word of God and church doctrine. Since it is your opinion, then you need to allow for rebuttal, because you are going to get plenty of it, and deservedly so.

Back to the presumptuous statement in question:

“the sheep we see in Matthew 25 are those who have helped Israel.”

• I have looked intently, and there is nothing in scripture to back this statement up.
• The leader acted as though he was basing his statements on comments made by Francis Jennings Dake. I happen to use a Dake's commentary Bible, and I do not see this statement anywhere in there. So, this is conjecture on the part of the leader.
• And, the most foolish aspect of this is that the leader is trying to force a twisted teaching upon us. This is easily resolved if you are willing to pay attention to the context, and Matthew 25 has a framework that starts in Matthew 22.

Since I directed us to consider the context, then let's do that.

Matthew 25:32 CJB All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats.

So, I know that it is the nations that are assembled before him. If I consider that there are only three people groups in the world right now – the Jews, the nations, and the church; I also have to consider that historically the nations were nothing less than harmful to the nation Israel. Why then would I make the assumption that the sheep would be supportive of Israel? Can I exclude the possibility that the sheep, some subset within the nations, are supportive of Israel? No, but since we find nothing to validate this assertion, then it is foolishness to push it off on people.

A second point when considering the context.

Matthew 25:31 CJB "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne.

While the idea of Jesus coming in his glory is spread across multiple sources, there is only one place in which he will sit on his glorious throne, and that is on the final throne of judgment, which Revelation 20 tells us is the great white throne. In either case, this is the only place where people are judged and sent to eternal punishment. So, when I put the phrase, “..the Son of Man comes in his glory,” together with the final judgment, then it is easy to see that Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 are the same event.

What kind of problems does this understanding cause us?

In Matthew Jesus is represented as the loving shepherd, while the Revelation reveals him to be the angry God that brings final justice, and I can tell you from experience that the deluded cannot and will not accept that these two events are the same.

What else proves that these two events are the same?

Matthew 25:41 CJB "Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, 'Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels!

Since the sheep, who obtain mercy are on the right, then these are the goats, and destined for what the Amplified calls, “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!”

What is the contrast comparison of Revelation 20?

Revelation 20:12 CJB And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

It happens everywhere you go, whether in Bible study or church; the assumption is made that everyone we see in Matthew's account is alive, and we disassociate these dead from the nations when we read the Revelation. It is these assumptions that cause us great grief when we try to understand God's word. Maybe we can quell our arguments if we consider that just a few verses prior God deceives the nations and then kills them.

Revelation 20:8 CJB and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for the battle. Their number is countless as the sand on the seashore;

So the nations are involved, as is their demise:

Revelation 20:9 CJB and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God's people and the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

If I wanted to make the statement that someone from the nations showed Israel some useful help, as the Bible study leader asserts, I do not see that here; we see them surrounding the city and God's people, for the purpose of harm.

Revelation 20:9 CJB and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God's people and the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

The judgment and finality of that decision are seen in both Revelation 20 and in Matthew 25, adding to the evidence that they are the same incident.

Revelation 20:10 CJB The Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 CJB "Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, 'Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels!

Matthew 25:46 CJB They will go off to eternal punishment, but those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life."

A third and final comment on context.

Dake's notes direct the reader to Matthew 13:24 – 43 when you digging a little deeper. Here is what many of the translations entitle that section of scripture. So let's examine how the parable compares with Matthew 25 and Revelation 20:

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Matthew 13:24-43 CJB

• Jesus is speaking. This same person speaking in our parallel passages. Why is that important? Because we are looking for validation and similarity.

• The context is the kingdom of heaven, and this is found in every instance.
• While I have not defined what the field is I can conjecture that it is the nations. Unquestionably, Matthew 25 says that he calls the nations to him, but can we say that about Revelation 20? The answer is yes, and we know this from the context which initiates around verse 8 where he draws the nations to surround the city of God – the New Jerusalem.

  Ask yourself: What is a field? Fallow ground; untamed; unusable; or land that is useful and merely awaiting preparation and planting?
• This “field” has been planted, intentionally, with weeds – bad seed. In horticulture, we learned that even a pleasant plant, such as a daisy, is considered a weed if it is growing somewhere where it is not intended.
• Both good seed and tares (bad seed) are allowed to grow together until they are harvested. Because Matthew 25 presents Jesus as the gentle shepherd, an image he intentionally conveyed to the Jewish people of His day, we miss the concept of a harvest. But let's get real for a moment. Would a shepherd be raising sheep because he enjoys them as pets? No, and so there is a time of harvest for the sheep, and, even the goats.
• “Just as the weeds are collected and burned up in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.” In both Matthew 25 and Revelation 20, that thing that looks so similar to the good – whether a weed or a goat, is gathered and burned for eternity.
• “Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.” In Matthew's account, the righteous are the sheep. Since we know that no man comes to the Father but through Jesus, here they are, standing before Jesus, being declared righteous, and given entrance into the kingdom. While we do not see those exact words, you should know that the unrighteous will not gain entrance into the Holy City or the Kingdom. Therefore, when verses like Matthew 25:34 tell us, “the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” then we can only assume that by their actions they have obtained a righteous standing.

I understand how Matthew 25 can throw your religious teaching and traditions concerning faith and works right out the window. At the least, it challenges our thinking, and no, I do not have the strongest handle on it yet. But I have come to understand one thing above all else, God is in control and not me. Therefore He gets the final word, and my judgments have to step aside. This control is exactly what Jesus was talking about when he told the parable of the man who hired people for the vineyard at the beginning of the day, and some were hired at the last minutes of the day. It did not matter to the owner for they all got paid the same. These, we see in Matthew 25 did nothing religious, as many of us have, and therefore did not pay the price we paid, like perhaps Jim Elliot did, with his life, and yet, they still gained entrance based upon giving someone a drink of water or feeding another. It seems to boil down to their lack of selfishness in those moments.

I have never been good at gambling. So to place my hope in a good deed seems like too large a gamble for me. No, life is not a gamble, it is all about faith and trust; therefore I put my trust and faith in Jesus Christ. He proved himself trustworthy and gave himself for me. Because I love him, I give myself to him, and that gives me hope. There is no gamble to it, merely trust.

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Doctrines of Demons, false teachers, and other foolishness. Revelation 3:9

As I mentioned in a previous post, involving yourself with incompetent Bible studies can give you a constant supply of fresh material. In this case, the self-appointed group leader of the morning coffee shop crowd opened with, “I have put several hours into this study of demons, and I believe we need to pursue this theme today.” He continued, there are demons all around us, and it is getting worse.

I feel I need to say; I understand there are demons. I believe they are fallen angels, and I also believe that they have arisen in greater numbers in these last days. We, who follow scripture, are aware that there are four awaiting their release from the Euphrates river in the last days, and they will do substantial and fearful damage. But, this is not them, yet. Satan is not producing more; however, I think that he has recruited people, in many cases, to help him. Is it possible that some of these fallen angels have been held in reserve, maybe? If not, they are no longer holding anything back.

An example of what I speak of could be found in one of my grandsons. This child seemed to be rather ordinary as a toddler. His older brother began to be somewhat relentless in what he thought was spirited humor, and now we are dealing with behaviors that appear to be demonic.

Why say that? To answer that question you need to consider some of Jesus encounters.

With the mad men from Gergesenes. A story you can find in Matthew 8, we find two who would

English: Site of Gadara (Umm Qais), Jordan Français : Vue du site de Gadara (Umm Qeis) en Jordanie (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

not allow others to pass anywhere near them. Jesus cast the demons out of them and into the swine that were nearby. (This of course ruined a small economy and prompted them to ask Jesus to leave.) Mark's gospel records a single mad man in the Gadara region, who had been bound on several occasions with no success. It is possible that this is the same story as the first for Jesus also cast the demons into the swine. In Matthew 9:32,33 we see the demons preventing a man from being able to speak. One more and I will move on. Both Matthew 17:15, and Mark 9:22, we see a father bringing his son to Jesus seeking relief because demons were throwing his boy into the fire and water.

What are the commonalities:

• Irrational behavior
• Irrational anger
• Tremendous strength
• Inability to speak
• Diseases

These things can be found in people around us on a daily basis. What if, we have been trying to treat demonic infestations with drugs that merely sedate you?

Ask yourself, did Jesus approach these situations with fear? Not at all, and neither should we. Sadly we will though if we are not prepared to address the situations when they arise.

The leader asked us to first read Revelation 3:9.

Revelation 3:9 NASB 'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

From this verse, he concluded that Satan has a church. I can tell you that my immediate reaction was a heavy sigh, as I knew there were some there, that will not read their Bibles for themselves, and therefore be taken in by this garbage, especially since he claims to have been a pastor previously.

While most would agree that there is a Satanist church among us today, there was nothing so blatant at the time of John's writing. Therefore, to call this, a Satanist church is clear false teaching. The leader asked the group what they thought of this assertion, to which several of us quickly offered opposing thoughts on the subject.

What do you use to debunk such a statement? The primary response is context.

The NASB categorizes this section of the Bible (Revelation 3:7-13) as being addressed to the “church” in Philadelphia. Because we Westernize the Bible, we take this concept of the church to be the building in which we converted Gentiles gather and that was not the case. While Peter was the one who initially got the invitation to take the message to the Gentiles, he did not follow through wholeheartedly, and therefore we eventually see the former Pharisee Saul, turned Paul, take the message to the Gentiles. The Apostle John, it would seem, did not waste his time on Gentiles, focusing on showing Jews this Messiah they had found. Fortunately, God extended His grace and mercy toward us Gentiles, and we learn of this through Paul's writings.

So, it is a logical assumption that the Revelation was written to the Jewish community. This hypothesis is evidenced by the usage of the term synagogue, which would have been Jewish with minor exceptions; the exceptions would have been converts to Judaism. While not evidence, religious teachers/pastors will tell you outrageous things like the Revelation is written in code to prevent the Roman occupying forces from finding out what God's plans were and therefore prevent an early demise for the church body. This code idea is not the case, for the book of Revelation was intended to be read and understood. Since we are now living at the time of its revealing it would be wise to comprehend what is going on around us.

So what is the purpose of John's usage of the phrase “synagogue of Satan”?

It was an analogy designed to grab attention. It also establishes a divine power or deity

Do not make the immediate assumption that this implies God.

1. A spirit being inferior to God.
2. Evil spirits messengers, or ministers of the devil.

The KJC translates daimonion as devil 59x and god 1x.

“be partakers” - Greek, metechō. Strong's defines it as: to share or participate; by implication belong to, eat (or drink): - take part in an established prophetic pattern, and, John knew too well that the analogies he was using were familiar, scriptural terms.

Because several of us balked at the leader's opening comments he quickly moved on to the next point he wanted to make, and here is where he directed us to look at 1Corinthians 10:21.

1 Corinthians 10:21 NASB 21) You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

He quickly tried to make assertions about this passage by saying, “see here, even the demons have a cup of communion.” While that might be true in some twisted sense, it is not even close to what is being said here. A good deal of the time digging a bit deeper into the sentence can help you understand what the Holy Spirit is trying to say. Watch as I take a simplistic approach.

On my first approach, I see two differing assertions: “You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons.” This theme is reiterated using an analogy to “the table of the Lord,” which we understand as communion. Since the idea of communion carries great depth and signifies the joining of ourselves into the life and death of Jesus Christ through the symbolic partaking of His body and blood when we eat the bread, whatever form that comes in, and drink the dark red grape juice, which represents His blood. Having retold the act of communion in this manner, I am suddenly and intensely aware that our act of “drinking the cup of the Lord” from the “table of the Lord” is a serious commitment on our part. There is nothing about our simple monotonous routine, at least that is the way we act when taking communion, that would show the world the commitment we have to this life in Christ; unless of course, we are not serious.

The other approach is to look at the words Paul used.

“drink” – the Greek word is pinō.

• Thayer's definitions tell us that the word means: “ figuratively, to receive into the soul what serves to refresh strengthen, nourish it.”
  Strong's concordance adds: to imbibe (literally or figuratively)

“the cup” - Again from Thayer:

1. cup, a drinking vessel
2. metaphorically one’s lot or experience, whether joyous or adverse,

We understand the cup to mean, that which belongs to.

“of the Lord” - Greek: Kyrios, meaning to whom a person or thing belongs

“of devils” - Greek is daimonion

Usage:

3. divine power or deity
   Do not make the immediate assumption that this implies God.
4. A spirit being inferior to God.
5. Evil spirits messengers, or ministers of the devil.

The KJC translates daimonion as devil 59x and god 1x.

“be partakers” - Greek, metechō. Strong's defines it as: to share or participate; by implication belong to, eat (or drink): - take part in.

If I consider the depth in these words, I see a context that has little to do with a cup of communion as much as it has to do with persons who are imbibing in the things of the world, while trying to keep their toes in the waters of the kingdom of God.

Why would that be a problem? It would seem that a love of the world displaces the love of and for the Father, and encompasses everything.

1 John 2:15-16 NASB Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

You should know what God calls this attempt at a balancing act, being lukewarm. You have no passion for anything. This is stated clearly in Revelation chapter 3.

Revelation 3:15-18 CJB "I know what you are doing: you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were either one or the other! 16) So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth! 17) For you keep saying, 'I am rich, I have gotten rich, I don't need a thing!' You don't know that you are the one who is wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked! 18) My advice to you is to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be dressed and not have to be ashamed of your nakedness; and eye-salve to rub on your eyes, so that you may see.

But we are not directly talking about love here, are we? We are talking about imbibing, and we naively think this is merely taking a little sip now and then. However, the Greek conveys someone who is gaining their experience, whether joyous or adverse from their indulgences. Not only that, the implication is, they belong to the things to which they have indulged. Since the idea of imbibing is frequently associated with drinking, then you must know that you rarely see anyone “imbibing” with restraint. Since those that drink usually have the goal of inebriation whether partial or wholehearted. These partakers are not just foolishly sipping, they are wholeheartedly indulging in a world that sets itself against God.

Now don't get me wrong, there are demons, which I believe are fallen angels, all around us. I don't have to go looking for them as these fallen angels seem to have a determined purpose of killing or disrupting the lives of those who look like Christ; that happens when you accept Him and make Him a part of your life. The demons also seem to have the generalized job of disrupting God's plan for the salvation of man. These attempts at disruption, unfortunately, impact the lives of innocent children and adults.

Some would see this picture I have painted, as a hopeless and impossible life to live. It is, however, the opposite, for we are endowed with power; which is the life of Christ and His infinite power. We have been given a hope of a life filled with peace, as well as a love we have never experienced here on this earth; and, He has given us authority over the defeated foe, called Satan, through the name of our risen King, Jesus. Merely having this knowledge and accepting it gives me the reason to keep my feet out of the mire that is called the world, and walk through this land as a prophet and warrior king. I pray that this becomes your reality in Jesus name.

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Matthew 25 and the fall from grace. An edited reblog.

Well, I did it. I went back to the Monday morning men's bible study. No, nothing has changed, and, six months later, they are still on the same subject. While I have no issue with spending over a year in the book of Revelation there needs to be a pointed purpose, and, the audience should walk away with a firm and decisive grasp on the subject matter; none of those aspects exist here in the Monday morning study.

(Dr. Hugh Ross, of Reasons to Believe [www.reasons.org], recently spoke to the men's breakfast at the church I go to. There he explained, to make a point, that he had only recently finished teaching a seven-year study on the book of Revelation. Considering the level of intelligence and depth of instruction you would get with Dr. Ross, I can understand. I do not feel that I nor you, have that kind of time.)

After 18 minutes of preliminary discussion, several of which were testimonies and checking on the health of attendees and their wives, we “dove” into Matthew 25:31-46. Since this blog already covers that subject, and I have spoken about it on a previous occasion, I will merely make this opening statement and a few minor adjustments.

I have something I need to talk about. Hopefully, I can keep it short. This has more to do with a question I have repeatedly been asked. I try to answer the question, but, because of tradition, bad teaching, or a lack of desire to pursue the answers, the question keeps coming up.

The question goes something like this, "There are obviously those that make it through the tribulation. Are they saved?"

I thought about it for a second, and then I responded with, what does it mean to be saved? He answered back with,

“You know, saved!”

No, I don't know. If you are trying to say that these survivors by merit of merely existing to the end are similar to finding salvation in Christ, then the answer is NO. But if you were to be contrasting salvation with pulling someone out of a fire, then, YES, I think they are. How do I liken making it through the hell of the tribulation years to getting pulled out of a fire? They will both kill you.

So the essential question that needs definition is, what does salvation mean? But that is not what you are asking me, is it. You already have this crazy notion of what things look like and want me to validate your misconceptions. Well, that is not going to happen. I am going to try to get you to look at the truth, which happens to be the word of God; but there is a problem in that. The problem is that the answers to your question are not neatly packaged in one place, so this forces both of us to do our homework, and we have to have open minds about the answers we find. Lacking that, you are no better off than a rock.

When I try to respond with an answer, most remove logic from the equation and discard the truth of scripture because it conflicts with their traditions. Having attempted a reply to the question, I referred the person asking to Matthew 25. I did this because he opted to change projected history by putting the great white throne judgment immediately before the 1000 year reign.

He quickly opened the Bible program on his cell phone and with a hostile tone in his voice read,

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats”. So there it is. He gathers the nations before him and judges them.

Yep, it says that.

However, it does not tell you when that takes place, neither does it explain that this throne is the same throne that we see in Revelation 20. There is nothing in Matthew 25 to indicate that these are souls that have died from quite probably Christ's resurrection forward, we are the ones who make the assumption that they are breathing air; and, it makes no clarification as to who they are or how they got there. The most astonishing and alarming aspect of all is, that contrary to popular belief, they are not all sent to eternal punishment (hell.)

I want you to understand the things involved in the original question: “ those that make it through the tribulation, are they saved?”

Because I told this person to look at Matthew 25, I want you to look there also. Before you jump into Matthew 25, you need to understand that there is a context to what Jesus said.

1. What we see in Matthew 25 is a continuation of a response that started in Matthew 24:1.
2. The things that motivated the disciple's question actually began in Matthew 21 when they placed him upon the colt. Ask yourself why that would be significant.
3. So what happened between them placing him on the colt and leading him into town in Matthew 21 and the end of Matthew 23, that would prompt them to say, when will these things happen and what will be the sign of your coming as the Messiah we anticipated (My version.)

In Matthew 21, at his direction, the disciples went and took the donkey, and it's colt. This was finally it. Jesus was going to step up as the Messiah they anticipated for every king triumphantly rode into town like this, but that did not happen. After all the fanfare and adulation Jesus sees the money changers in the outer court of the temple, makes a whip of cords and drives them out. This, of course, brought the wrath of the Chief priests and elders upon him, and he battled with them verbally for two days. We seem to forget that they disciples were right there; they had no place else to go (we assume).

Jesus finally says, let's go to the mount. It was his favorite place to rest and recover when he was in Jerusalem, and it is only a short distance away from the temple.

The disciples discouraged, disillusioned, fatigued by the intercourse are now probably grateful to get out of harm's way. Trudging along behind him they try to lighten the mood by pointing out how great the temple was, and at this point, they were making comments about its massive stones. Sadly, Jesus, the true temple, was standing right there and they did not yet realize it. I happen to think this understanding plays a role in how Jesus responds. Thus begins a rather lengthy discourse and the answers to some very Jewish questions.

Matthew 25:31-46 is an aspect of Jesus response, and is to be taken in context. In the context timing is everything, and the timing has everything to do with, when will you come back as the Messiah we were hoping for?

Matthew 25:31-46 ESV "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

While I did not quote the verse in rebuttal, there is no doubt that it says, “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations,”. If all you ever read was this, you could build a variety of themes around it, and be rather convincing.

Here is one of the aspects that give people trouble: “Before him will be gathered all the nations,”

Do you understand that there are only three people groups (as far as God is concerned) in the Bible narrative? They are:

• The Jews – Israel
• The nations – Also called the Gentiles. This is literally anyone outside of Christ – those who refuse to follow him.
• And, the church. The church is the followers of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. He is not a gentile God, He is God, and he is Jewish. Those of us who have accepted that he paid the price for us have been adopted in; we Gentile believers were at that point grafted into the root stock – Israel. Paul explained that having accepted him, he received us and made us be in Him.

So, God calls all those outside of a relationship with Jesus the nations. (I am comfortable using the name God because in the book of Revelation we find all that happens there a revealing of Jesus.)

What we see here in Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the Bema seat judgment of the church. Considering that we are told that NO evil thing will come into the New Jerusalem, then one must assume that all that junk we tote around with us will be gone somewhere between here and the “pearly gates.” Leave your worries about that crud behind and move forward. I also strongly suggest that you stay out of the arena of judgment since the manner in which you judge is how you will be judged.

I told the person asking the question that Revelation 20 is the same story as we see in Matthew 25. There will be some obvious differences, but I will attempt to explain.

Revelation 20:1-3 ESV Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. (2) And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, (3) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

When does this take place?

After the tribulations of the seven years (it may not be a precise seven-year period.)

Read Revelation 19: 17-21.

• There you see Jesus coming back with a mighty army, and where all those who choose to fight against Him are slain.
• In Ezekiel, we find that the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and the martyred reign with Christ during the thousand years.
  Are these seated on the thrones holding judgment over the nations as we see in Matthew's account? No.
  With Satan bound for a thousand years, any evil that is done is entirely the creation of man's desire, and that will continue to happen. I believe that these judges will be keeping rein over that kind of nonsense.
• All oppression shall cease.

Revelation 20:4 ESV Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So let's address the major point of contention.

The idea that Jesus sets up the great white throne at the beginning of the millennial reign; judges the survivors, and sends them all off to hell.

This is not what is described in Matthew 25, nor do we find this in Revelation 20:11-15.

“Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-15 ESV)

Is that what we see here in Revelation 20:4? No.

Revelation 20:4 NASB Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Can you see why?

• Instead of one throne, there are many.
• Instead of one person, Jesus, all the martyred take part in the judgment.

• In Matthew, we find a glorious throne instead of the great one we see in Revelation 20.
• Matthew 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations.
  Look at how John describes those standing before him in Revelation 20, “and I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened.
• In Revelation 20 the crowd is separated according to their deeds found in the books.
  Matthew 25 shows the Son of Man separating them into sheep and goats. We must assume that the sheep are those whose names are found in the books, and the deeds must be expected because of the separation.

This recurring event is intentional and meant to register quickly in the mind of the Jewish reader/hearer. Why?

Because repetition is the standard pattern for prophecy to the Jews, and this book we call the Bible is a very Jewish book.

In Revelation 20:12 we see books opened, and the book of life.

Revelation 20:12 ESV And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Catch the distinction here: The dead are judged out of the books based on what was written in the books, according to what they had done. When you contrast this to the single book of Life, the contents and impact to the goats are not revealed. However, Revelation 20:15 shows the judged thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:15 ESV And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I realize this is hard to grasp, but God can and has shown mercy. He has done it too and for me. One of those pieces of evidence was the price His son paid on the cross.

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