A short dive into Isaiah - Chapter 11

A short trek through Isaiah - Chapter 11

This is not very interactive, as I am doing this out of my own personal interest. Having been challenged recently about what many assume is the probability that Isaiah was quoting a mythological saying of his time, as though it was scripture, I decided I needed a deeper understanding of Isaiah. For me, there is only one way to do that, and that is to dig. 

If you don't mind digging you are welcome to join me on the journey.

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Isaiah 11:1-3 NASB “Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;”

• Of whom is the writer speaking?
  • Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Note the descriptives: “The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.”

You should understand that the word fear, used in instances like this passage, mean a deep and healthy respect and reverence.

Reverence: In the Old Testament, occurs as the translation of two Hebrew words, yārē' and shāḥāh. The root idea of the former is “fear.” It is used to express the attitude toward God Himself, as in Psa_89:7 the King James Version; or toward His sanctuary, as in Lev_19:30; Lev_26:2. So the group of ideas there would be “fear,” “awe,” “reverence.” The root idea of the second is “falling down,” as prostration of the body. It is used to express the bearing toward another who is considered superior.

• “And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear.”

I am involved with several churches, most of which deem themselves to be open-minded, non-denominational. And yet, from old to young they spew judgment out of their mouths. Don't get me wrong, I am adept at judgmentalism and fight against it always. Why? Because I, like everyone else, have sat under false teaching while refusing to open my Bible and find out what the truth is for myself.

Often, as some Bible study leader is trying to explain some horrid statement they made, will speak of God and His Great White Throne judgment, as a point of no return, where all brought before him are sent to the eternal torment of hell. Does that sound anywhere close to this descriptive we see of God? [Yes, I know, we are talking about Jesus here aren't we. However, I integrated a visual taken from the Revelation of Jesus. And yet, when you read Revelation 20 we presume this to be God sitting in judgment here. Why do we do that; because we take someone's word for it and do not educate ourselves.

Where else do we find this concept?

1Samuel 16:7 NASB “But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."”

Isaiah 11:4,5 NASB “But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also, righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.”

Alright, since you understand that the Lord looks at the heart, then this should demonstrate the mercy that far too many do not understand. That is that God, having looked upon the hearts of people, will be able to make a sound decision and grant multitudes entrance into the kingdom of heaven, solely based upon their good deeds.

I am not making this stuff up, for you see it in both Revelation 20 and Matthew 25. This mercy, found in both books, is more descriptive in Matthew's gospel because the focus is on the sheep, not the goats. In Revelation 20 it says little about those whose name is found in the Book of Life because that is not the focus there. That lack of description does not mean they don't exist, and it would be improper to say otherwise. I am telling you this because I have heard it taught that Revelation 20 is exclusively a judgment where everyone gets sent to the lake of fire and that is not the case.

Isaiah 11:6-9 NASB “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also, the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea”; this is definitely what the Jewish mind sees when they speak of the eternal kingdom.

• “For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.”

A rather dramatic assertion that only God could fulfill.

Allow me to ask you a question. Why would this be a concern in the eternal kingdom?

I can't imagine it would be, but I can see a reason for an emphasis like this during the millennial reign because the nations continue to exist and continue to have a freewill choice. Forced to come to the New Jerusalem each year, they must participate in the Feast of Tabernacles. Failure to do this has some dire consequences, but this is not the final judgment, that does not happen until the Great White Throne.

Jeremiah 31:34 NASB "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Isaiah 11:10,11 NASB “Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. (11) Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

In that day, or, on that day, what does this all point toward?

The phrase has multiple meanings, some of which are particular moments, while others cover a broad spectrum such as the “seven-year” period and the millennial reign of Christ.

• “ The nations will resort to the root of Jesse.”

Romans 15:12 NASB “Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."”

Isaiah 11:1-5. - We have already discussed these passages, and it is clear that it is speaking of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. But this speaks of a branch from the root of Jesse. When I worked with plant propagation, we learned that it was common for growers to take a rootstock that resists disease and nematode invasions common to many soils. The variant was then grafted onto the root stock. Most roses that we buy have already had that done, and we don't even pay attention to it, nor do we care.

Ruth 4:17 NASB “The neighbor women gave him a name, saying, "A son has been born to Naomi!" So they named him Obed. He is the father of Jesse, the father of David.”

Obviously, he is talking about a lineage; an ancestry, specifically initiating with Jesse, the father of David. I think it is safe to say that Jesse was a righteous man, but what did Jesse do? He fathered David, who later became the king and a man after God's own heart.

Isaiah 11:12,13 NASB “And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. (13) Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim.

• “And He will lift up a standard for the nations.”

He is the Messiah.

Since an aspect of our discussion is “the day of the Lord” let's talk about that for a moment.

If you do a search for the phrase, “in that day”, the NASB produces 89 verses; most of which speak about God's anger, hiding his face, and a time of judgment. This information should prompt you to ask when this time will be. We, in Christianity, love to call this time the tribulation. I have a problem with that since Jesus told us that tribulations would be a way of life. The time that is coming is called a time of judgment and wrath, and you can find that throughout scripture, especially in the Revelation.

Isaiah 10:20 Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 17:7 In that day man will have regard for his Maker, And his eyes will look to the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 19:21 Thus the LORD will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the LORD and perform it.

Zechariah 2:11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

I hope you get a general idea, for this aspect has never been clear to me. If others attempted to teach on it in my youth, I do not remember, or it made no sense. Since I am a visual learner, and I have not been able to visualize this scene in my mind, I am still not sure I am getting it.

• “Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim.”

From MacArthur: "Ephraim … Judah. These were the two major divisions of Israel after the schism under Jeroboam (1Ki_12:16-20). Ephraim was the name representing the ten northern tribes, and Judah the two southern tribes. When the Messiah returns, they will reunite in a lasting peace."

1 Kings 12:19 NASB So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David (Judah) to this day. (Emphasis, mine.)

• “those who harass Judah will be cut off.”
  • Will this be in one fell swoop, or progressively?
    Since we see no relief for Israel, it might be best to see this as one massive military action, although I am not sure God calls it an operation. We see this in Revelation 19:11-21.
    Revelation 19:11-21 NASB 11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12) His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13) He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14) And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16) And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING

    

    When Jesus comes in his glory

    OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." 17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18) so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." 19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
  • This battle will be quick, decisive, and only against those who choose to fight against God. Since God sees those that fight against Israel as fighting Him, then I am certain they will be included.
  • One other thing, it will be global. But, you have to keep in mind what has going on in the world before this happens.
    • Hail, fire, stars falling from the sky, and earthquakes that are off the scales. It is entirely possible that the land masses may be reconnected at this point, making the definition of global to mean a much smaller world.

Isaiah 11:14 NASB “They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west; Together they will plunder the sons of the east; They will possess Edom and Moab, And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them.”

• “They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west;”
  • My first question is, who is being referred to when it says “they”?

Philistia along the South Western coastal border, we understand as Gaza.

Because the present subject is Ephraim, who has set aside, it's hostility to Judah, the Southern states (I suppose that is one way to look at it.) Then I think it is safe to assume Ephraim – Note: the world does see any distinction here, as any action is identified as Israel. This assumption can create problems as two-thirds of Israel, the nation, will be slaughtered during the time of wrath, while it seems the other third flees. I do not see anyone left to defend a populace. But, then I am not God, and God does not live inside my subjective box. Therefore this could happen as you read this. Currently, it seems that Gaza is allowed to live within their limitations until missiles start raining down on Israel once again, and then the active military efforts deluge them.

These efforts, however, only seem to be temporary fixes to the problem.

Isaiah 11:15 NASB “And the LORD will utterly destroy The tongue of the Sea of Egypt, And He will wave His hand over the River With His scorching wind, And He will strike it into seven streams And make men walk over dry-shod.”

A highway from Assyria

The IVPBBC states: “gulf of the Egyptian Sea. This is the only occurrence in the Bible of a body of water called the Egyptian Sea and is therefore difficult to place with any certainty. Most commentators identify it with the Gulf of Suez.

• “And He will wave His hand over the River With His scorching wind, And He will strike it into seven streams And make men walk over dry-shod.”

Isaiah 11:16 NASB “And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, Just as there was for Israel In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.”

Was there a highway, as we understand it, coming out of Egypt? Nope, but God did cut a path through the Red Sea, expansive enough to march over a million people across on dry land. That means that it was broad and entirely dry when they crossed. The Egyptians, when they assayed to cross were drowned in that same sea. So, in a sense, this was the highway. We might assume that this will happen again because the precedent has been set.

Egypt and the Nile

An inquiry into Isaiah chapter 14:12 - Alright, it is a wee bit of a rebuttal as well.

English: Lucifer, the fallen angel (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

A Study in Isaiah

Chapter 14 verse 12

A profound motivation to search out what is said in Isaiah came as a result of a post I had made on Facebook that addressed some of the religious ceremony having to do with the Pope. The video opened with an opus, sung in Latin, apparently had its origins in the book of Isaiah. As the young man sang, the English translation appeared the bottom of the screen. Strangely it said nothing of Lucifer. In the video, made in 2014, the originator of the video asks, “did you notice what he said?” Since I don't know Latin, I feel like I missed it entirely. He went on to explain that the song began by giving Lucifer an equivalency to God. My impression is that the person posting the video is telling us that the Pope too gives Lucifer that level of distinction as well. The subplot to this is that the Pope, if not the Antichrist, is certainly kicking open the doors as he fulfills scripture about the apostasy.

So, the burning question is: Where is this found in scripture, what is it saying to us, and, does it elevate Satan/Lucifer to the status of God?

Where is this found in scripture?

Without going into great detail at this point, the passage originates in Isaiah 14:12, and, according to the CJB reads like this:

“How did you come to fall from the heavens, morning star, son of the dawn? How did you come to be cut to the ground, conqueror of nations?”

This dive into the Hebrew and associated Strong's numbers may only confuse you, but I want you to see the KJV w/Strong's numbers.

Isaiah 14:12 KJV+ HowH349 art thou fallenH5307 from heaven, H4480 H8064 O Lucifer, H1966 son H1121 of the morning! H7837 how art thou cut down H1438 to the ground, H776 which didst weaken H2522 H5921 the nations! H1471

Note how the word Lucifer is attached to the Strong's number H1966. The word in Hebrew, translated Lucifer by some, is hêylêl, pronounced hay-lale'; and means, (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:12 also happens to be the only place you will find this word used in scripture.

In the Strong's we are told that it is from the root word hâlal, pronounced haw-lal'. (Strong's number H1984). It means to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast, and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate.

One other thing you should pay attention to, especially if you read this in the KJV. Note how verse twelve points out that “the morning star” (for understanding and liberties sake, we will call him Lucifer), was cut down to the ground. The impact of that was a weakening of the nations.

I have been told that this is the basis for the word hallelujah, and is the root word for praise.

What is the obvious take away from this?

That Lucifer's origins included praise to God, but that in no way makes this fallen angel an equal with God. We know from scriptures that he was a created being and that deceit was found in him. God certainly did not make him that way, but also given a free will he chose to usurp God's authority. Satan's attempt at mutiny got him stripped of his position and thrown to earth. Because we find him walking in the garden we might assume that this was before his fall, but we also find him deceiving the woman, and that would have certainly been after his fall. Through deceit, he wrangled the dominion and power over the earth away from the man (Adam) and, without a doubt, has been weakening the nations ever since.

An acquaintance of mine, with a Masters Degree in Theology, responded unkindly to the video I posted and took it upon himself to chasten me for pointing out the possibility that the Pope is advancing some form of Luciferian worship. This acquaintance also opted to defend the Pope. This attack, in my mind, is not so unlike something my mother might have done when I was under her authority, for mom's religious background caused her to defend even the worst of people. To help you understand my rant, my definition of mothering is meant to imply any over overstated correction that assumes you don't have a brain in your head. I believe that when we take on this attitude and mothering role we are not being useful, but judgmental and controlling. Seeing as part of his chastisement toward me was to point out that Isaiah was talking exclusively about an unknown Babylonian king while quoting a well-known mythological tale taken from the surrounding idolatrous nations, let's pursue that for a moment.

As for the well-known mythological story.

Here is what the IVPBBC says:

“Many interpreters, ancient and modern, see it as a designation of Venus, the morning star. It is this interpretation that was behind the early Greek translation of the term, as well as the Latin Vulgate's luciferos (shining one, i.e., Venus). Most modern interpreters believe that Isaiah is using a well-known mythological tale as an analogy to the failure and consequences of the king of Babylon's rebellion and arrogance, but no known literature matches the details of Helel's rebellion.”

Keep in mind that old challenge, do you jump off the cliff just because everyone else is doing it? The short answer, I hope, would be, not a chance. Why, because you have the ability to make decisions. The Apostle Paul associated this concept with the Bereans who would not merely accept what he said but validated it with the Word of God and were then convinced.

Allow me to apply some of my logic to what the IVPBBC said.

• “Many interpreters.”

As a part of my Bible study program on my computer, there are 45 commentaries, many of which I have purchased and at least that many translations of the Bible. I could say, that I draw from 45 interpreters of scripture. Some have a use, but I do not agree with everything they say. When I tell people this, and I rarely do, their response is often, why? Here is one good reason. The KJV has issues, but after all these years they are well-known, and this excludes Elizabethan language issues. However, compared to the NIV or ESV which leaves out large blocks of text which diminish the strength of the book, the KJV or NASB seem to hold truer to the character and nature of God, that I have through experience come to understand. Over simplified versions can open the door to conversations that might not happen with the KJV, and I get that. So, the variety of translations give us varied flavors, and that is okay, as long you are getting appropriately fed.

Is it possible that the many interpreters are merely following each other, as they steer those of us who buy into their garbage, astray? Certainly.

As a side note: Pastor John MacArthur, a brilliant man, says, the gifting involved with the Holy Spirit has been done away with. Since I can see the Holy Spirit involved in my life, do you think I am going to buy into Pastor John's interpretation on this subject? Not a chance.

• “ Most modern interpreters believe that Isaiah is using a well-known mythological tale as an analogy.”

You might as well tell me that most people buy into this fresh idea of killing cops as well; especially when it 's obvious they don't. They don't buy in because most people are sensible, wishing to live quiet lives. I know I am. It is always the squeakiest wheels and a minority that try to push people into the twisted doctrines of life. Since Satan is a deceiver and the passage itself tells us that he weakens the nations, then it is possible that advancing theories like this “ mythological tale” only weaken our resolve and understanding of God.

I have never heard of a mythological Babylonian king named Helel; that does not mean the story does not exist. Though I did not have the chance to read everything written by every author in the world, I did have to read some unusual stories for college, and that was not one of them.

The practical side of this mythological argument is that we use a Bible that was supposed to be inspired by the Holy Ghost as God spoke through men. God was also very implicit in His commands to stay away from the practices and beliefs of the idolatrous nations that surrounded them. Why would Isaiah have stooped so low as to interject some mythological person into prophecy? He would not have, and to have someone suggest that he did irritates me immensely.

• “king of Babylon's rebellion and arrogance,”

While rebellion and arrogance may be okay words to describe some kings, we only know of a few and for the most part, they all seem to stem from Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. When Nebuchadnezzar holds his head a little too high in arrogance, God humbles him and has him grazing like a cow in the grass for seven years. In time we come to consider him a man who understands God.

The one personality who best fits this rebellion and arrogance is Satan, formerly the light bringer.

• “ no known literature matches the details of Hele's rebellion.”

If there is no public research to back your argument, then why promote the case for this being some unknown mythological Babylonian king? And furthermore, how do you, an intelligent theological commentator makes such ridiculous presumptions without substantial backing.

He may have been the light bringer, but now he is the deceiver of the whole world, and his end is seen in Revelation 20 after the thousand year reign of Christ over the earth.

The Modern King James version interprets Isaiah 14:12 this way.

“How you are fallen from the heavens, O shining star, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!”

The translators of the MKJV took the reasonable route in interpretation by excluding the name Lucifer. Applying a Berean attitude and eliminating the name Lucifer at this point would be the safer road to travel, especially since this is the only place in the Bible we can find this word hêylêl.

So, what does Isaiah 14:12 and its general context, have to say to us, the modern church?

• First off, as a believer, you should be aware that we have an enemy.

No, Satan cannot be everywhere at the same time as God can, but a third of the angels fell with him. Ask yourself, how many is a third of an uncountable number? A lot.

• Secondly, we learn that Satan was stripped of his title and thrown out of heaven and down to earth.

It is evident from Isaiah 14:12 that “he” has fallen. But, do you know from where?

Jesus told the disciples that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. (Luke 10:18.)

• Third, Satan, though stripped of his divine authority, is well versed in the Scriptures and skilled in deception. He stole control/dominion over the earth away from Adam.

I know that far too many “Christians” do not understand this concept or believe it. Consider that when Satan tested Jesus after the forty days fast, that he took Jesus up onto a pinnacle of the temple and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and he said they were his to give. Jesus never contested Satan's claim but merely shut his mouth with the Word of God.

Putting this statement “I saw Satan fall like lightning” (Luke 10:18) alongside other evidence like Ezekiel 28:13 where it shows the light bringer walking about in the Garden, and his deception of Eve in that same garden further on in time (See Genesis 3.) We get a picture of stolen authority.

• Fourth: While Satan was thrown from Heaven, we know that it was not a permanent expulsion, as we assume, but more of a stripping of a title and position. One of the passages we use to validate a claim like this is found in the book of Job.

Job 1:6-8 MKJV “And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them. And Jehovah said to Satan, From where do you come? Then Satan answered Jehovah and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart against My servant Job, because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil?”

At one time thrown from Heaven, he is still found meandering in the outskirts of heaven among the other angels, close enough to have God speak to him.

The final question then, is Satan equal with God?

There may be an honor bestowed signifying the one who created you, but when it comes to angels, they are messengers. They are not sons as Jesus became, and all of the angels must worship Him.

Hebrews 1:5-7 GW God never said to any of his angels, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." And God never said to any of his angels, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son." 6] When God was about to send his firstborn Son into the world, he said, "All of God's angels must worship him." 7] God said about the angels, "He makes his messengers winds. He makes his servants flames of fire."

If you have any doubt as to Satan's origins, as the Jehovah's witness have, then ponder this:

Ezekiel 28:13-15 MKJV You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the emerald, and gold. The workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. 14] You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy height of God where you were; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15] You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

• Name wise; he is understood to be the anointed cherub that covers.

The allusion seems to be to cherubs covering the mercy seat.

Why would that be? Perhaps because of his rank, or because of his strength. It does not matter for we have no definition for that but what we do know is that he learned deception.

The other reliable reference is found in Isaiah.

Isaiah 54:16 KJV Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

While destruction may be a hard concept to swallow, in the scheme of things it is possible that God had this planned all along, with the eventual goal of purging the world of all that would stand between his people and the love he has for them.

So, Satan was created, and with no flaws. And yet, he became flawed. Considering who made him, what chance do you and I have without a savior? None and that is why it is imperative that we find our life in Christ and quickly.

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Adventures in False teaching. Chapter two - Is there a judgment of the nations?

Have you ever heard the saying, "you should have been there!"

If you had you would better understand why I responded with the comment, "it was comparable to watching a tornado tear through a farm." I made this statement in response to a friend who asked me what I thought of the morning's study. Think about what happens in an event such as a tornado: The tornado rips through a farm, tearing the barn to pieces; quickly you begin to see two-by-fours swirling rapidly next to metal siding, a cow, and a farm tractor. Any and all of this could kill you. Now imagine someone asking you to describe what you see in the tornado. On which piece do you focus? That was the morning study.

Since the men's study, for weeks now, has been attempting to address the presumed judgment of the nations, let's see if we can find that theme in scripture.

With some frequency, the teacher has been referring to Matthew 25:31,32. Unfortunately, the reading always seems to end with verse 32, and therefore falsely conveys a horrific judgment upon all. Let's look at this together, and I will use the NIV, a translation I cannot stand, but it is a simple read.

Matthew 25:31-32 NIV "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. (32) All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Without knowing the context, we assume that what Jesus said in Matthew's gospel applies to the time immediately following the “tribulation.” Here is the problem with this thinking. Jesus responded to the disciples questions with answers that were specifically Jewish. This issue about when Jesus would return in his glory is one of those that is important to the heart of the Jew. While there is no denying that Jesus comes back at the end of the time of wrath and Revelation 19 makes that clear. Is that the end of the story? Not even close, as Jesus, in his glory, for the next thousand years, continuously sits upon the throne providing the light for the world.

At the end of the thousand years, Satan is released. Having had the time to deceive the world there is, once again, judgment. Matthew's gospel calls this “the nations.” Focusing on the nations as countries can be a problem, as this is merely people, and a study of the words in Greek demonstrate that.

Although he denies the connection, the study leader makes the assumption that there is a particular judgment of the nations based on passages taken from Revelation chapters 19 and 20. I know this because he misquotes and takes these verses out of context, turning them into a horrific, merciless, and judgmental paragraph, which condemns everyone that remains to the lake of fire, simply because he sees no one specifically mentioned as coming from the book of life.

Revelation 19:11-15 NIV (11) "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice, he judges and wages war. ..."

Revelation 20:4 NIV "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. ..."

Revelation 20:11-12,15 NIV (11) "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. ... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. .. (15) "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Since there is a consistent placement of Jesus sitting in judgment, let me point out several fallacies that I can see when using these verses.

• In general, we do not see Jesus, alone, sitting upon a throne during the thousand years. Yes, Revelation 20 speaks of Thrones, but not just one.
• The question posed by the disciples at the beginning of Matthew 24 was, when will you come back as the Messiah we expected. We see this glorious return in Revelation 19 as he rides in on the White Horse. However, Matthew's gospel speaks of His return as well. Matthew 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.”

But what do we do? We ignore the undefined pause (noted by the period at the end of the sentence) and make a huge leap forward one-thousand years in time, to where Jesus/God gathers all the nations before him. Is that a problem? Not to the Jew, for they understand that when the Messiah comes his reign will last forever. It can be an issue for us though because we have a Western mentality that segments this event. What the Jew treats as a glorious event is merely one long migration into eternity.

• Revelation 20:4 tells us that the dead are brought before the throne.

Matthew did not mention their physical condition, why should he, for the idea of an eternal soul is an integral part of the Jewish understanding.

Consider these dead and what they might mean. Since Revelation 20 tells us that Satan will be released after the thousand years for the specific purpose of deceiving the nations, we also know that God slaughters all those who rise against Him in this battle. So let me make an assumption here. Having joined themselves to Satan's cause, a final battle, can I then say that these dead have made their choice as to whom they will serve?

Because we only concern ourselves with the dead here in Revelation 20, we need to be asking who the dead are. We already know that many died in this final battle, but this gathering does not exclude people throughout the generations. And, since the only thing that seems to die is the mortal body, are these actually dead?

Nowhere in Revelation 20:4 does it name Jesus sitting in judgment over the nations. It does, however, tell us that there are those who have been given authority to judge. Here are a few instances from Scripture where the judges we see are defined.

1 Corinthians 6:2 NIV Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

You should be asking yourself a couple of questions here. The first is, who are the Lord's people? And the second might go like this; I thought we were talking about the nations, and yet this says the world. So is it the world or the nations? Before I address either of those, I want you to see the NASB translation of the same sentence.

1 Corinthians 6:2 NASB Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

The Lord's people initiated with Israel. God has never decommissioned them. He did, however, punish them severely for their disobedience. Unfortunately, that punishment continues through the time of wrath and judgment, which we foolishly call the TRIBULATION. We, the church, have had the fortune of being adopted into the family and likewise gained the title, the Lord's people.

There is another group of individuals called saints in scripture entitled to carry the title, the Lord's people, the martyred saints. It is always good to have scriptural backing for your statements, and besides, most people want proof so here goes.

Revelation 20:4-6 NASB "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

A quick tally of those reigning gives me: the church and now the martyred saints, which also reign with him. Note the phrase, "with Him."

Scripture tells us that Jesus told his disciples that they would reign in judgment with Him. Look at this passage in Luke's gospel where Jesus is talking to His Jewish disciples.

Luke 22:28-30 NASB "You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; (29) and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you (30) that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The “you” he mentions, were the disciples, and the trials that Jesus speaks of are the ongoing events, including the beatings, scourging, and the cross. For their dedication, both now and in the future, Jesus tells them, they will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes. While this does not answer any direct questions about a judgment of the nations, they are indeed sitting in judgment over Israel - the twelve tribes. It does, however, give us a huge clue about an aspect of the twenty-four elders, whom we also find sitting upon thrones. While Luke's Gospel speaks of the elders sitting on thrones judging, I see no direct correlation between the elders and judgment in the Revelation. Since the Jewish law states that there must be two or three witnesses to make a case, then based on the fact that we can only find one witness, I would be hesitant to make a case out of this.

If I were to draw a conclusion from what I have pointed out so far, it would be to say that I see judgment handed off to the church and the martyred saints. Considering the horrendous treatment these martyred received, it is a logical choice. I am not so sure God operates like that, but it makes sense to me.

Focusing specifically on judging the nations.

No matter what my conclusions the adamant will still insist that Jesus is to judge the nations; And, as I pointed out, they pull aspects from Matthew 25: 31-32 and Revelation 20, beginning at verse 11 to make their case. In doing so, they create a theory from the various scriptures, so that they can validate their claims. I am going to start with Matthew 25 since that one comes up most frequently.

When trying to ascertain what scripture is saying to me, I need to understand the context. In this case, it begins in Matthew 21, where Jesus, not because of some innate connection with the Father, but through understanding, like the prophet Daniel, knew that it was time to ride into Jerusalem, on a young colt, as a KING should.

I cannot begin to fathom the excitement the disciples felt as they thought, He is finally going to step up and reign as the King for which they had longed. That excitement was short-lived, for just minutes later he was clearing the outer courts of the temple, chasing vendors, people, and the elders out; His actions brought a verbal firestorm, and the disciples had nowhere to hide. The rhetorical barrage between Jesus, the priests, and elders, lasted for two days, neither did he take the throne as they had imagined. Exiting town Jesus heads toward the mount of Olives; we now find the disciples struggling with something intelligent to say. I probably would have done the same thing they did. Passing by the temple, the symbol of Jewish tradition and the focal point of Jewish pride, it seemed to prevent them from seeing Jesus as the Messiah. In response to their statement, Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed. Trying to redirect their focus He tells them what is coming. This response from Jesus prompts a short string of Jewish-oriented questions, which He meets with a long response that was specifically Jewish in nature. This Jewish orientation is what we see in Matthew 24 and 25.

If I approach what Jesus said, with even a minimal amount of Jewish-oriented thought, I will have a greater understanding. In Matthew 25: 31 – 46 an aspect of His response includes the statement, “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him.” To the Jewish mind, “coming in His glory and all the angels with Him,” would have been highly symbolic, prophetic, and indicative of when He would return as the Messiah/King Israel anticipated. It makes sense, for Jesus is painting a picture of the time after the period of wrath and judgment when He will physically come back to earth. Yes, this time of glory includes the migration into eternity. So, the Son of Man, coming in His glory is what we understand to be the physical, second coming of the Messiah. This second coming includes what is defined in Revelation 20 beginning with His reentry into the physical world, which we see described in Revelation 19:11, and culminates with the Great White Throne judgment.

In Revelation 19 He comes riding with the sole purpose of judgment; this is evidenced by the visual that he is covered in the blood of His enemies.

• If this is the sole judgment of the nations or merely an aspect, it should not matter for it could all be over in a second. But, if it takes a few days, what is that to us? There is no way it will take God a thousand years to bring judgment, culminating with the White Throne.

But what do we do when we look at Revelation 20, where Jesus/God takes a seat and passes judgment upon some of those gathered before Him, we extend his judgment over the nations across the span of the millennial reign to the moments just after the years of wrath. We do this because we are not clear on what Scripture says, and we allow foolish teachers to feed us this garbage without question. (P.S. - You can have graduate degrees and still be a fool.)

• If this is the sole judgment of the nations – then why are survivors among the nations made to come to the New Jerusalem every year, participate in the Feast of Tabernacles, and bow before Him.
• If this is the sole judgment of the nations – And, you teach that this includes a final decision and a one-way ticket to hell, then why would there be any nations left to deceive after the thousand year reign?
• If this is the sole judgment of the nations - then why, in both scriptural references, does he also show mercy to some and give them entrance into the kingdom?

While judgment might be what is happening, the argument, initially presented by the study leader, was intended to be a concise, chronological representation of what he thinks he sees in Scripture. What it turned out to be, was a convoluted merger of multiple verses that cover two different time frames.

In Matthew 25:32-46 it does say that the nations will be gathered to Him.

Yes, but if that was all you based your understanding on, then you have a problem, for the Greek word used here for nations is ethnos, and means Gentiles, people, or a people of similar habits. Why that could be anybody; And, it would best be thought of in that manner. So Matthew's Gospel is telling us that people will be gathered before him. Mind you; they will be from every corner of the world, but they will be there.

Since, in the broader spectrum, people are not quite nations, what evidence do we have that all nations will be gathered to Him?

Isaiah 2:4 tells us that, “He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples, And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.”

While judgment is spoken of, so is the concept of rendering useful decisions for people, somewhat less judgmental than I expected to find.

The following verse in Isaiah 34:2 is rather grim.

Isaiah 34:2 NASB For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations and His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.

Sure, this speaks of all, but that is never the case. [I say this because I have read Matthew's account and the account in Revelation 20. Both speak of those who are granted mercy and entrance into the kingdom of God, based upon their works. That causes most of us in religious circles great grief because we are hard pressed to explain it when compared to what the majority of the New Testament tells us, that it is faith, not works that grant our acceptance into the kingdom of God.]

In Deuteronomy chapter 13, God is speaking to Israel about false prophets and how to identify them. If found out the community was to kill the prophet by stoning them. This method of death is a horrific event, even without dragging the entire community into it. However, God gave these instructions with an express intent, which we see in:

Deuteronomy 13:11 "Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such a wicked thing among you.” (NASB)

Did that happen? I think it would be safe to say that every male among the Israelites camp heard this word. (I said every male because it was a decidedly male authority structure back then and it would have been expected for the men to pass this information along. What if that did not happen, could I still say that all Israel heard? ) You would think that all Israel would have wholeheartedly followed these instructions, but they did not.

If I consider the Hebrew children in Babylon, where Nebuchadnezzar is demanding that ALL bow before the image (The assumption here is that EVERYONE is there) one might suppose that Daniel, a highly respected leader, would have been there too, and yet he was not.

I think it is clear to say that the word all is a generalization. Does this understanding diminish God in any way? Not at all, it merely reveals how merciful God truly is.

An attempt at a final thought:

Confronted by what I see in God's word, I need to submit to His authority and change my understanding, even if it challenges every tradition and false teaching I have ever learned. Grasping His mercy over judgment is not difficult for me, for He has shown great mercy to me. My problem is, how do I explain a mercy I do not fully understand, nor comprehend. I cannot adequately explain why it appears that in both Revelation 20 and Matthew 25 people are granted entrance into the kingdom of God based on their good works. Which by-the-way, is very clearly explained in Matthew 25 when Jesus responds to the sheep, that your acts of showing kindness to Him when He was: hungry, thirsty, in prison, had no clothes, etc. I think you get the picture, and a predominant visual is Jesus in prison. That never happened, and so I must assume that He is in or represented by this broad range of people; And, the little ways we help them, is doing what? Apparently, stepping outside of our selfish desires, if even for a minute. Since I was taught that the guarantee of my salvation came through acceptance by faith, I am going to stick with that. Having tried gambling I can tell you that I am not good at it; And, though occasionally compassionate, I am not going hope that the one sandwich I gave a person is going to buy my way into heaven. I came to understand who Jesus was and is; I also know what He did for me by giving His life, and I am putting my life and trust in that.

Grasping His mercy over judgment is not difficult for me, for He has shown great mercy to me. My problem is, how do I explain a mercy I do not fully understand, nor comprehend. I cannot adequately explain why it appears that in both Revelation 20 and Matthew 25 people are granted entrance into the kingdom of God based on their good works. Which by-the-way, is very clearly explained in Matthew 25 when Jesus responds to the sheep, that your acts of showing kindness to Him when He was: hungry, thirsty, in prison, had no clothes, etc. I think you get the picture, and a predominant visual is Jesus in prison. That never happened, and so I must assume that He is in or represented by this broad range of people; And, the little ways we help them, is doing what? Apparently, stepping outside of our selfish desires, if even for a minute. Since I was taught that the guarantee of my salvation came through acceptance by faith, I am going to stick with that. Having tried gambling I can tell you that I am not good at it; And, though occasionally compassionate, I am not going hope that the one sandwich I gave a person is going to buy my way into heaven. I came to understand who Jesus was and is; I also know what He did for me by giving His life, and I am putting my life and trust in that.

I cannot adequately explain why it appears that in both Revelation 20 and Matthew 25 people are granted entrance into the kingdom of God based on their good works. Which by-the-way, is very clearly explained in Matthew 25 when Jesus responds to the sheep, that your acts of showing kindness to Him when He was: hungry, thirsty, in prison, had no clothes, etc. I think you get the picture, and a predominant visual is Jesus in prison. That never happened, and so I must assume that He is in or represented by this broad range of people; And, the little ways we help them, is doing what? Apparently, stepping outside of our selfish desires, if even for a minute. Since I was taught that the guarantee of my salvation came through acceptance by faith, I am going to stick with that. Having tried gambling I can tell you that I am not good at it; And, though occasionally compassionate, I am not going take a chance that the one sandwich I gave is going to buy my way into heaven. I came to understand who Jesus was and is; I also know what He did for me by giving His life, and I am putting my life and trust in that.

One of stories/parables we read about is the vineyard and those hired to work it. We find this in Matthew 20. As the day is coming to an end, the owner hires others for the same pay as those who started at day break. Having worked all day in the hot sun, they are mad and do not think that is fair, and they tell him so. Well, that is many of us, and, as I point out these things I see in scripture, this is almost word for word what I hear. These guys I sit with, steeped in their religious tradition and imposed rules, have suffered their entire lives as they restrained themselves from doing the things that "world" does. And, now they are incredulous at the possibility that God would show mercy and allow someone into the kingdom (our payment if you will), and they do not have to do anything.

Since I was taught that the guarantee of my salvation came through acceptance by faith, I am going to stick with that. Having tried gambling I can tell you that I am not good at it; And, though occasionally compassionate, I am not going hope that the one sandwich I gave a person is going to buy my way into heaven. I came to understand who Jesus was and is; I also know what He did for me by giving His life, and I am putting my life and trust in that.