Answers to a friend. Hebrews 5:7

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,
(Heb 5:7 RV)

"Who in the days of his flesh," - God became a man, and yet remained the Father that Jesus the man was able to call out to. How that happened is beyond me. I try to comprehend it and struggle, therefore I merely accept the concept as fact. Jesus was so remarkable, miraculous, and filled with the father's love that he must have been who he said he was. There are so many proofs that he is God and yet the compassionate Jesus who walked with man upon earth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(John 1:1 RV)
 "In the days of his flesh"  - I can readily ascent to the fact that He walked this earth as a man; the God man.

"having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him" -
Is it the prayers or the fact that he did it with tears that causes the problem? Perhaps the fact that the verse has him offering prayers unto him, him being God.
Now wait! I thought he was God. Right you would be.
Entities, aspects, and perhaps personalities, capable of separating themselves from the other in form, diverse in mannerisms, and yet totally in cooperation with the other, nor struggling to dominate the other.

Tears merely demonstrate the humanness of our God King, and Messiah.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(Heb 4:15 KJV)

He, Jesus the man, was tempted in every manner that is common to man, and he became our high priest. Therefore he knows what we go through, and what it feels like. He still maintains that role in the heavenlies, and as the author of the book "The Shack" tries to point out, he still voluntarily maintains that form and position in the heavens with the Father.

"unto him that was able to save him from death,"
God could have spared him the agony of torture and then death.

Being ridiculed, beaten, and then hung upon the cross was only part of it. Sin separated us from God, something the King of Glory had never experienced, and everything we know from scripture is part of God's plan to redeem us back to himself.

The OT is filled with the hows and whys of the sacrifice that had to be made, just so man could have momentary relief from the sin that is so deeply ingrained within, and even at that man still had no direct communication with the Father, but had to allow the high priest speak to God on man's behalf.

We are told he did it - did what?, allowed himself to be sin knowing that it would separate him from the Father. And why? for the joy set before him.

No one, in their right mind, finds joy in their own brutality and torture, therefore what was set before him was something more than just the agony of death.

Hanging there on the cross he cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?" Since Jesus became sin, our sin, God could no longer look upon him either -just as he could not look upon sinful man, and for the first time in eternity Jesus experienced separation from God. 
Not to worry, that all got straightened out, but think about it. Jesus had never experienced life without the Father. Adam got a good dose in the garden after having dominion over it for how long.

I will tell you that there are those who will not buy this concept. They feel strongly that it is blasphemous to even consider such a thing. How could God separate himself from himself, or allow a beloved son to experience such pain and trauma. I do not know how to answer that, but I sure am glad that Jesus voluntarily subjected himself to it.

This obedience produced a warrior king, a high priest, and a God man that could completely understand who were since the fall.

"and was heard...."
What might be troubling about this aspect? Jesus had asked the Father if there was another way. That sure sounds like a man that really wanted another way if it was possible. What we did not see was God answering him back. We can make that assumption based upon the fact that Jesus carried out the mission. But that is not what this says. It says that he was heard. Then that only leaves one conclusion: LOVE won.
What does that mean? Jesus volunteered, and God so loved a broken world that he gave his only son to it as a gift. Beside all that Jesus opened one of his prayers with "Father, I know that you hear me always" To be heard in this manner implies that the Father responded positively to every request that Jesus made. Jesus did not demand a yes answer to his question, but merely made the statement that he already knew the answer to.

Just because we do not see things going the way we want, while in anguish, does not mean that God does not hear. Perhaps God has given you the answer and you are just fighting it.

"... in that he feared;"
He was heard because he feared.
Fear is a negative word with negative connotations, but, especially in the case of Jesus, would it not be more practical to think in terms of respect. That phrase "fear God" is scratched all over the pages of the bible. Certainly there were more than enough circumstances to evoke fear, but really the entire time God was looking for respect. He made his point on many occasions by pointing out the futility of playing with inanimate objects, painting little hands, feet and mouths on them when then cannot speak, and have done nothing for you.
Scripture really does demonstrate God mocking these things for when the Philistines captured the Ark of the covenant they placed it in one of their temples, near their god Dagon. In the morning their god was on it's face before god. Not totally convinced that was significant they tried it again. They found their god not only face first on the floor before the Ark, but its head and hands were broken off as well. They caught on.

There is a context to the fear aspect here, and might be missed if one did not continue to read. The next verse says: "Though he were a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered;"
I seriously doubt that Jesus struggled with obedience, that was man's problem, had always been, but then again - tempted in all ways as we are he would have had ample opportunity to try and rise up against the Father. This is what made Satan's offer of the kingdoms of the earth such a realistic offer. The moment Jesus would have said yes would have taken him into the realm of  asserting himself above God, the supremely correct decision maker. That is exactly what Satan did, and you can see where it got him. Jesus defeated him hands down on the cross that day, and Satan's only home will be in eternal punishment when this is all over.

The second greatest gift that Jesus gave us was his willingness to be and do nothing outside of the Father's instructions.

You might think that is way too restrictive. Ask yourself, as you read about Jesus' life on this earth, was there anything about him that seemed restricted. Good lord no! He healed the sick, healed the lame, cast out demons, set people free, sought out the broken and restored them, and gave people life and hope. And best of all he had fun doing it. How can I say that he had fun, for God fills us with a joy that surpasses all understand when we doing his will.

Answers to a friends questions: part 2

In reality one could ask the question of John 1:1 and get an entire book on the subject. My friend threw out many scriptures with no definition of what the question was, merely the idea that they did not grasp them. If you look at the passages, in this case John 1: 1-5, I suppose that all you really have to do is to ask what are the common things people struggle with (myself included) when they read these.

As a side note: I have been spending a tremendous amount of time lately, looking at eschatology and what is going on in the world right now. Folks, if you are not aware Islam is your next door neighbor, and fits every description of things to come. Jesus answered his disciples, see Matthew 24, with this: Do not be deceived, and do not be afraid. He also told them a parable about a fig tree, and the evidence that it is about to bear fruit. We are seeing signs that things are about to bear fruit. Read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9. It speaks about the thief in night, springing upon the unattended (we assume) house. Here is the insight for the day. " But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. "
So how does this relate to the passage below and the questions? Islam believes none of this, but they believe in a form of Jesus that may be so convincing to many, that they will be deceived into converting to Islam. The point here is, you need to understand who you are, and who you belong to. Thessalonians also tells us that the his appearing in the clouds to gather us to him, will not come until the antichrist is revealed. If you understand Islamic theology at all then you will know that many of us will have stand fast upon our faith, and probably die, as an Islamic fighter from Yemen will arise six months before the Mahdi (antichrist) steps forward. This fighters purpose is an attempt to destroy those who would stand in the way of Islam. Now how can one man do that much damage? He can't, but he will put forth a cry of jihad that will begin to cover the globe. Unless you have had your head buried in the ground then you should know that the threat is real in this so called safe nation of ours.
Why would I tell you this? Not to invoke hatred toward a people or nation, but to pray. Jesus told his own disciples that if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. I take that to mean fighting back with man made tools is foolish.The most powerful weapon at our disposal is prayer. Ask God to make himself real to these people, and change as many hearts as possible. Ask for God's protection over his people, "the people of the book" as we are known.
Be the people of the book.
Be life.
Be light.

Back to the passage and my response.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(John 1:1-5 KJV)

From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.
(John 1:1 BBE)

IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa. 9:6.]
(John 1:1 AMP)


Beginning: The natural meaning of the word is with reference to time. The primitive Greek root means “to be long,” “to draw out.” Thus, it is used to refer to some point of time long drawn out, or long past (Gen_1:1). It is used also to express the inauguration of a particular event (Exo_12:2).

Word: The commonest term in the Old Testament for “word” is דבר, dābhār (also “matter” “thing”); in the New Testament λόγος, lógos (“reason,” “discourse,” “speech”); but also frequently ῥῆμα, rhḗma. Rhēma is a “word” in itself considered; logos is a spoken word, with reference generally to that which is in the speaker's mind.

One of the most dramatic passages in the bible is this one. John makes it extremely clear that Jesus was God, and they are inseparable. God, his Word, his Son, and all creation was made by him. Since we have to use faith to believe, then let's just stretch our imaginations just a little and you can see Jesus, in whatever form he was in at the time, speaking the worlds into existence just as if God himself did it. If you have not read the book "The Shack" there is a description given by God, in the form and style of Mama, a wise, old, black woman. In that description God explains how they work together in thought and unity. Not competing with each other. Maybe what makes God difficult to understand is that we can do nothing but compete with other.

One of the things we are told about God is that He always was. That has to imply that any aspect of Him was there also. The word already existed.

I also do not think that any honest person can say they totally grasp this concept. We seem to understand the concept of a man being as good as his word, but God was the word, exhibited the word, created with the word, and  walked this earth as the God man, Jesus his Son.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
He, in this case is Jesus.

Everything has a beginning, no matter how hard that is to understand, except God, the Word and the Holy Spirit. Again that is a hard concept to grasp, but one we have to grapple with. If only we had not spent so much time watching Star Trek, as they tried to grasp the same concepts in human terms. That may be the problem because we attempt to understand God in terms of the humanness that we are so deeply entrenched in.

in the beginning: would have to in this case our beginnings, earth, which by the way scripture says that it was made perfect. Therefore if something became wrong, and that might be an explanation of dinosaurs, then it happened shortly after the beginning.

with God: the word used here is pros, and it can also mean - to the advantage of; at; near; by; towards; with regard to.

John 1:3 GW  Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

It appropriately expresses everything which exists. That's a fairly broad statement. I suppose that could mean in its original form, but that is not what the verse says. Then that would mean the good with the bad. And the answer is yes. What right does the pot have to tell the potter how it should be made and how it is to be used. If this challenges you consider that scripture tells us that Pharoah was merely a tool for God's use in bringing His people out of Egypt. Just the fact that you claim to have a relationship with God and are asking these questions tells me that God has a plan for your life. As for those around you that may not seem like they know him. Prayer changes things. How do you know that God was not merely waiting on you so that he could act upon your prayer.

In him there was life, and that life was a light for the people of the world.
(John 1:4 ERV)
Who is the him in this case? The context has been about God's Son, Jesus; the Word.

Life was in him. Ponder that for a moment.

We all breathe up to a point, and that breath is necessary for our life, but this is not what he is talking about. This is a life that is eternal, a light that never goes out. Even as I write this I can hear something inside me scream out "and it desires restoration with the Father that created that life."

The world tends to run from him, the one who carries and gives that life.

In our attempts to understand and fill the voids we feel, we have developed things called "night life" as though there were life in them, when all the while nothing man creates restores the life inside, but brings about death, on so many levels.

LIFE - Yes, I know. I just yelled it.

The Greek word for life is Zoe.
From Vine's expository of NT words: "life as God has it, that which the Father has in Himself, and which He gave to the Incarnate Son to have in Himself, Joh_5:26, and which the Son manifested in the world, 1Jo_1:2."

Genesis 1 tells us that man was created in God's image. Jesus said that God is a spirit, and so you have probably picked up on the fact that spirit is central, but not exclusive to the world God can operate in. So man then was made an exacting replica of God, a spirit. At some point though, God put a body on him.
The life, the same life that has existed in Christ from the beginning of all incomprehensible time, is what God put in the man. Wow, and to think that man threw that away.
We should know by now that man died that day in the garden. If you read the story did you see him die in your minds eye? No, for physical death quite often is a slow process. In Adam's case 900 years, but the life, the same life that God possessed, that exuded from Jesus pores, that God put in the man, died.

Can you imagine what that suddenly felt like. Every ounce of darkness, depravity, loneliness, terror, and want for companionship came rushing in. No wonder God destroyed the earth with a flood. Scripture tells us that violence filled the earth, and the thought and intents of man's heart was only evil.

Can you begin to understand why Jesus cried out to the Father, asking Him if there was any other way. Oh, he knew this torture was going to hurt, but to have the life put out was unbearable.

Deny it if you wish. The horror of the cross is so unbearable that I can see why you would not even put Jesus on that cross. But you have to understand that Jesus voluntarily became a man, chose to suffer, die, to bear all sin and shame upon his body, and left nothing out.
WHY?
For one person alone, YOU. He came to restore that life in you through your acceptance of his sacrifice, and that is exactly what He became. Why do you think that scripture is filled with descriptions of his sacrifice and blood. Because it is life to those of us who cling to it.

Not to worry though, He came off that cross, defeated death, hell and the grave, and rose victorious. Understand that "it is appointed for man once to die" and he did. Nothing can touch him. Nothing could have touched him then, had he not allowed it. But he did, for you, and He brings those that choose to follow Him into himself, making them his own, and placing them before the throne of their new Father, the King.

Jesus, this day I receive your life into mine. Receive me into your kingdom for the life and light that I see in you is the light and life that I must have in me. Take me as I am for I have nothing else to offer. Broken and humbled before you I bow, submitting myself to you.

Arise my child, for this day you shall be with me in paradise. What glory, and there is no price that you could pay worthy of such a one. Therefore he paid the price for you and invites you to come.

Responses to a christian friend. Part 1

This is what the friend wrote: 

"GENESIS 1:26 AND JOHN 1:1-5 AND HEBREWS 5:7 AND JOHN 14:30-31 JOHN 17:1-8 . WHAT DO THESE SCRIPTURES MEAN? THEIR ARE MORE BUT I DON'T WANT TO OVER LOAD MY BRAIN."

How does one respond to this because it is a loaded question, but if you were asked, and you had the time to give each one some thought what would you say. Although I cannot swear to it, my understanding of computer chat speak tells me that writing in all caps is like yelling. If that is the case I think there is a lot going on in the background that I don't know about.

I prefer to think that God is exciting and passionately in love with us. This might motivate him to give us information that drives us in our desire to find out more about him. Tearing apart verses does that for me. I may not do the best job of it, and I cannot stand relaying my explanations in words so big that few can understand, let alone me, but I try; plus it gives me a tremendous sense of satisfaction. 

With no frame of reference as to what puzzles my friend about these passages I opted to look at them with a questioning eye. What would bother me about them? For example "God said, let us make man". Having been around the church for a long time that has some meaning to me, but in truth I have grappled with the concept of plurality also, not so successfully at times. So then the added benefit that I always find is that I gain a deeper understanding of God, and fall more deeply in love with him.

Let's dive in -

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

And God said - The word used is elohym. It is seen as elohim in our English bibles. It implies  plurality, but when specifically used with the article means the supreme God. The word pops up throughout the OT and is also used when referencing the lesser gods of the nations that surrounded Israel. The word elohym is a derivative of the word eloahh the singular word for God. The word 'elohym occurs 2605 times in the bible. 2366 of those times it is translated as "god".

Elohim is also translated as gods, but not to be confused with the triune God as we might understand. In Genesis 3:5 Satan told them "that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil,". Where they to suddenly become plural entities themselves, not hardly, but having all knowledge. They did not know how to sin, that was Satan's invention and his first attempt at killing them, therefore Satan's use of the word on Adam and Eve has to refer to a god as a common thing.

Israel was told repeatedly not to worship the god's of the nations around them, and the word used was elohym. It merely, in these cases, meant the multitude of useless objects, and characterizations that people substituted for God. This, by the way, seems to really piss God off when we substitute other things for him.

Let us make - The concept of a triune God is not exclusive to the New Testament. This is our first introduction. God is a spirit, Jesus made that clear (he ought to know), and those that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth. I suppose that means an all encompassing belief in him, much like throwing your entire heart into something. 
 

How would you define a spirit? Undefinable? 
Perhaps because we work so hard at putting a body on God is why we struggle so to understand Him. 
We learn from scripture that there is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and yet they are one. Jesus was able to function on earth as a man while praying to the Father in heaven, and yet He was God. The book "The Shack" did a pretty good job of defining them as being in perfect communication and harmony and yet separate, but not independent; a condition we humans cannot do because we always have to be in control.

Because we have seen them in operation, through God's word and experience, we know they exist, have an impact on our daily lives, and hopefully believe that they are. True our minds do not want to wrap around the concept of who and how, but that does not make them less real. While in fact they are reality and we are the ones living in a phony world.

make man in our image - The word translated make is asah, and means to do or to fashion. That seems simple enough, but God is a spirit, therefore the man would have had to have been a spirit too. Following the path in Genesis you will find that God eventually puts a body on the man.

The word translated man is adam, and can also mean mankind or human being. This will have a strange twist in a moment.

in our image, after our likeness - Remember that God is not singular in being, therefore "our likeness" can take on a whole new meaning. This has to imply that every aspect of God was put in man. Do not think singularly here. The Holy Spirit comforts, teaches, and causes fruit to bear in our lives. Jesus the great Raboni (teacher), discipler, healer, and lover of the broken, and God is supreme in every way and yet loves us with an everlasting love, one that we have no way of comprehending the depth of. And yet this was his creation, an image of Elohim. 
Man, having no sin, had no thought of taking control and using all this power for evil purposes. If this was man in its purest form, and apparently God's traits invested in man were "genetic" in nature, then imagine what men were like after the fall, all they seemed to do was to attempt to dominate each other, one of the main reasons for the flood of Noah.

and let them - Here is where our train tends to fall off the tracks. We believe that God made man, Adam, one guy, and yet here is a plural word "them". What is up with that?

Consider the Hebrew word adam, and that it means man or mankind. God did not make all of mankind at one shot (at least I don't think so), but it appears that there were at least two entities in the image of God here on earth, and they were both considered adam. There is the possibility that the persons we call Adam and Eve walked in unison, as gods, on this earth, without sin, expressing all the aspects of God, perfectly.

It is also possible that this is God projecting a future population, but then that would have to have been a perfect world, and we can assume that we might not have been here at this point. Not that sex is an outcropping of sin, but without a body (I assume) there would be no need or thought of that happening. If that is not the case then God looked forward and saw us, and desired for us to have dominion over the earth, not people.

have dominion - This does not say anything about people having control over people, and really just needs your imagination and a good  medium steak to understand the dominion concept. You cannot deny that dinosaurs roamed this earth, but having dominion over them. An interesting concept that has no clear answer. I truly do not believe that he wanted us destroying this earth considering that he made it beautiful for us. It would appear that man's greed and corruption had a direct relationship to earth's destruction. I suppose that would be why God is going to destroy it all and make us a new one.

I will explore some of the other verses in the future.  

As a side note. Why do we seem to be so dismayed at having to believe that God is, and that He is a rewarder of those that love Him. The muslims are pressured to believe also. They must believe that one man (Mohamed) received the words from Allah, while the insanity of that notion is duly noted in the Quran, yet few dare to refute him. They must believe that Jesus will return again only to support the anti-christ, the awaited Mahdi, and demand that people bow in worship of Allah or die. 
I mean really is our believing so difficult. So many of this American nation put their faith in Obama, electing him President, because he claimed to be the man of change. Faith is not that difficult. Believing that there is no God when there are so many proofs that He exists is the difficult part.

Thoughts on reincarnation and hell

I struggle to find clarity, but here goes.

One Friday evening I was sitting in the locker room at work, reading the book "Playing with Fire"; a book intended to spark an interest in reading the word of God correctly, in context, with the purpose of seeing the overall picture and heart of God.

While sitting there a fellow employee came in, looking rather depressed, so I asked how they were doing. Part of their answer involved someone telling them they were not a Christian because of their beliefs. She went on to explain some of her beliefs. I must say I was shocked and disappointed.

Allow me to focus on couple of things.

He, God, really does love us, but not making the effort to learn God's heart through reading his word, and playing with the world's concepts, clouds our image of who He is and what his plan is for our lives. Hardly a person walking the earth has not heard John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son". There was nothing required in order to earn that love, God just did it.

The verse goes on to say "so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life." Wow, an overwhelming action on God's part, but it is not a carte blanche to heaven, for you have to believe in him. If belief in him preserves you from perishing, then there has to be something or someplace that either destroys, imprisons, or separates you from God's life, and that is what God wants us to avoid.

Thayer's definition of the word apollumi, we call it perish, is this: 1) to destroy; 1a) to put out of the way entirely, to abolish, to put an end to; 1b) to render useless

If we assume that to perish is to merely be "put out of the way entirely" then what becomes of us. I speak to those that refuse to accept that there is a hell, especially since we are told that there is a hell to avoid. But then this person told me that they don't believe in hell.

Revelation 20:10-15 RV  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  (11)  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  (12)  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.  (13)  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  (14)  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.  (15)  And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

In the passage above, if you lean heavily upon the separation aspect you will observe that it gets thrown into the lake of fire also. Did you notice that everyone not written in the book of life gets to join with the deceiver in torment, day and night, forever. This tends to blow holes in the "no torment or hell" theories.

Hell was not made for us, but people are choosing to go there.

Many seem to think than man is intrinsically good and will therefore rise to the top like cream. The truth is that although originally created in God's image, we all seem to have been genetically damaged by the fall of Adam, and we all sink to our lowest possible level of training if left without God.

You do not believe that either do you? Look at this.

Genesis 6:5-13 RV  And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  (6)  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.  (7)  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.  (8)  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.  (9)  These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, and perfect in his generations: Noah walked with God.  (10)  And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.  (11)  And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.  (12)  And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.  (13)  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

"And God said to Noah", as though Noah was the only decent man on the earth, but there was Methusaleh, whose name carried the meaning ("he dies and it (the flood) is sent".) From the Fausset bible dictionary. What was coming? The destruction of man, and fresh start. If God already had an earth full of "intrinsically" good people why destroy the earth at all? And why wait for this man Methusaleh to die?

If a godly man teaches his descendants to be Godly then how does evil come into play with no one outside of your sphere of influence to affect you otherwise?

The answer goes back to Adam again. We are all damaged, infected if you will with an incurable disease, sin.

All of this sounds so hopeless, and if left in that original state it was. When you consider that God had a plan before the world began, and you take in all the events of the Old Testament, it begins to feel more like watching the grand strategist as he coaches a universal sized football game.

You might ask what is His plan?

A simplistic answer is: 

Man, having fallen, needed a redeemer. The blood of animals brought temporary relief from guilt, but not the restoration of relationship with God that man once had.  Christ came voluntarily and became the last sacrifice, paying the debt that man owed, so that God could regain the family that had been His from the beginning.

There is so much more to that statement, but that might be for another time.

In fulfilling the plan, Christ had to die as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. Many would perceive that act as unsuccessful and a failure, for why give up the life of one so noble for such a bunch of losers?

If we base success upon what we can perceive, and we do, I can understand why the "world" might believe that God failed. Look, we all know that his first choice for his affection was Israel, but they rejected Him. Therefore God opened the doors for those who are not of Israel to become part of his inheritance.

Do not think for a moment that Jesus and the Father were unsuccessful in any way. The price that Jesus paid was complete and in full, and in case you were not aware, he rose from the dead (another multifaceted concept), completed the task set before him, and sat down at the right hand of the Father; a done deal.

Maybe what people see as God's failure is that He made it so that our re-entrance into the family is strictly voluntary. I like to think of earth as a big adoption agency. In my rendition God comes to earth to make his choice. As he stands there looking for those he wants to adopt, he, because of his great love, decides that He must have them all. He pays the price with his son's own blood; signs the paperwork, and pushes it back on the counter saying: anyone wanting to come home with me put your name on the paper and hop in the truck. That is about as much choice as you can stand.

If a child is adopted  from an early age, they might not readily comprehend this choice aspect. A young child typically responds in love to those that show them love, but adopting a pre-teen might be a different story. They have seen the street, been influenced by peers, and can be set in their ways, having huge attitude problems. Sound familiar - kind of like us. The walking attitude might say "yeah, I'll go with you, but I am not taking out the trash!" Isn't taking out the trash an aspect of being part of the family unit? (Yes, this opens a whole new can of worms.)

God, throughout the Old Testament, demonstrated his intentions by making the first move (think of this in terms of his love toward us) by verbally placing his character on the line, and committing himself to the proposition. He said on many occasions "as for me".  Look at Gen 17:4; Isa 59:21 for a couple of examples. How the recipient responded was entirely up to them, but God was not backing down from his decision, and never has.

Yes, king Saul was rejected by God; yes, it does say "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated", and I cannot deny that God rejected Israel, but "I believe that what we have here is a failure to communicate." Look, the bible was originally written in Septuagint Greek, a language of the people, and that made it far to ordinary, so the Jewish leadership had the written versions confiscated and re-written in Hebrew. (That was fairly easy to do seeing as they were scrolls that were primarily in the synagogues only.)

Can you see a problem with this language issue. History is primarily told from the point of view of the side you are on.

Later the Hebrew versions were translated into Latin. Again, effectively keeping it out of the hands of the common folk. Eventually scripture became what we know today.

Does that make it all bad and untrustworthy? No. Smarter people than many of us have studied and compared notes, and though there are known errors the consensus is that overall we have reliable translations and copies of the original documents, written in a manner that we can understand.

Back to" the plan": 

The acceptance that the death on the cross was for you specifically asks for our participation by receiving all that God's grace poured out toward us. In a sense that requires humility as you come to the realization that you cannot save yourself. The mere idea that man can save himself is a huge flaw in man's thinking and the basis of so many religions. Born in sin we can never be good enough to gain acceptance by God, for you will always do or think something that could push you out His good graces, therefore we needed salvation.

As for Reincarnation - or perhaps this concept that we keep recycling through life(s) until we get it right, and then God will accept us.

Response:

Hebrews 9:27 - Tells us that man only physically dies once. Perhaps that leaves open wide gaps for argument seeing as someone might scream about Lazarus being risen from the dead. Let's just say that as a rule you typically only die once. There is a second part of that verse which says then they are judged. Hebrews 9:28 continues to add - "Likewise, Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of humanity, and after that he will appear a second times. This time he will not deal with sin, but he will save those who eagerly wait for him."(GW)

The concept of reincarnation is an integral part a part of eastern religion, strictly based upon works, and not a concept that scripture promotes. Man has never been able to "work" hard enough to gain a right standing with God; Israel proved that over and over again. This is one of the reasons that Christ, gladly and voluntarily came. To free man from the sin, damage and debt that man could never repay, nor free himself from.

If I was building a framework of moral ideals, based upon some mentor, then I would look to those who had done it right, accurately setting the foundation for this grace path we walk on.

Who am I talking about? The author of our faith, Jesus, and then the writers of the new Testament, Paul being predominant, for he was obedient, followed God's instructions, and then conveyed them to us.

Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Some might incorrectly play off of that verse by quoting only the part about we are all children of god, but being God's child clearly requires a faith in Christ Jesus. Mind you an awareness of why you are having this faith might be in order.

There is no exclusion in that verse for it is available to anyone who places their faith in Him. There are of course those that choose not to do that, and they will follow their father (the father of lies) to his home, in the end.

Okay, what about hell?

Rev_20:14 states: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Revelation 20:15 continues to say - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

This punches immensely large holes in a theology without hell.

How does one avoid this scenario?

Not by working through the hell on earth, although that seems to be a part of life, and an unavoidable struggle that cannot be avoided. Christ paid the price for sin, so we are not to be judged for that. If there is a judgment against the followers of Christ, then what does that judgment look like?

Judgment, to those who are in Christ, is merely for works done or not done, here on earth.

Revelation 20:13 speaks of the book of life being opened. It says: "and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." First off, note that those in this passage are in the book of life and should not fear hell at all. Secondly, I see a gracious, vastly forgiving God that has shown them his love by placing their names there, when by human standards we would not have. Thirdly: whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

To believe in reincarnation forces you to believe that the pressure is entirely on you to perform in order to gain God's acceptance. As I pointed out by Paul's writing that acceptance is entirely by faith in the one that saved us. Obtaining God's mercy under judgment is by faith also, but there is no punishment as we understand it. James 2:12 states in the God's word translation: "Talk and act as people who are going to be judged by laws that bring freedom."  Where is the fear in that? Since when does freedom bring fear, except perhaps in the case of one who has been a prisoner all their life and does not know how to act as a free man. If that is the case then get around people who know how to walk in the freedom of God.

Here is the bottom line for me. If you are His, then the debate is settled. You get to live with Him, in his kingdom. If you are judged then you are judged by rules that bring about your freedom within His kingdom. In His kingdom there will be no sin and therefore and everything will have an entirely different perspective. I cannot even begin to imagine what freedom feels like. The closest thing I experience to it is in worship. Sadly, for me, the moment I begin to comprehend that freedom it slips away from me.

I long for that day when I can be with Him, no longer struggling with the bounds of this earth.

The story of Ruth, or is it.

When and who wrote the book of Ruth are not agreed upon, but is it important?

I thought I should know so that I could understand the background of the story better. That, to me, translates to putting flesh and blood on the characters and making them real. Real people have feelings and emotions, and I suspect that Ruth would have had to put some of hers away in order to subject herself to Boaz.

She did not do this out of love for Boaz, if anything it was her love for Naomi.

Ruth put herself willingly into this position (the threshing floor, at his feet) knowing that it was for the greater good, Naomi's and her own. And there was no guarantee that Boaz would or could accept her and the package that she was a part of.

The book of Ruth is not so much about the background (life, death, marriage, and your own sad future in a foriegn land), but about the Kinsman Redeemer.
Suddenly, as I wrote the things above, I saw an image of Christ and the Father as they discussed the need and desire to redeem the people of earth; the greater good, and Christ's willingness to subject himself to possible rejection and certainly the pain of the cross.

Those that look at Ruth seeing the kinsman redeemer may only see the correlation between Christ and Boaz, the one capable to redeem, and yet as I mentioned the pattern for Christ can be seen in Ruth's willingness to lie at the feet of a relatively unknown man, hoping that he would accept her. (Naomi lacked no confidence in this regard. That is whole other area of human emotion and speculation.) Does anyone else see the Holy Spirit of God moving all through this chain of events. How could we not think that God orchestrates the minutia of our mundane little lives as we struggle or supposedly succeed on this  earth, for we could do nothing without Him. Consider all the events surrounding Naomi and Ruth: land owners, farmers, sons, daugthers in law, and then to lose it all. Life could have gone desperately wrong for them. The book of Ruth is also a picture of a woman with an incredible backbone, and a willingness to make a move regardless of the potential hazards. To use the word "perhaps" does not necessarily prove faith, but she did something. What else is there to do when certain death by starvation may be your only option if you sit where you are.

Naomi did not mention the other relative; why? Good question. What we do see is that she directs Ruth specifically about Boaz. The other relative may not have been known, or it just had not come up yet. Ruth is the one who happened to choose Boaz's field, Naomi merely played that circumstance hard as she seemed to have insight into this mans life.
Based upon Boaz's own comments I never pictured him as handsome or young, and even in this there is a similarity to Christ. Scripture tells us that Christ was nothing to look at, not remarkable in any way, nor was he married. Boaz had never married and he seemed excited that Ruth would choose him.

All of life is a string of choices. Foolishly we tend to think that those decisions were primarily ours. As an example look at the story of Esther. Sure, Esther was beautiful, and that helped, but God made everything happen for one intent, His.
One day as I watched Oprah, she ranted about how she became disenchanted with God because she heard from scripture that He was a jealous God. Jealous of what, her and her success, not hardly. From what I understand we were put here on this earth for companionship with the benevolent creator. And unlike some bizarre Star Trek episode he actually was willing to show us his love in hope that we would love him back. Fairly one sided and narrow minded, Him taking all the risks, so to speak. So after Adam's failure we have been, or so we think, left here to make choices on our own. God sent his only son. The Son came willingly. He died upon a cross to redeem us, and we have his promise that he is coming back for us. He did everything that he said he would do, with one major intent, to demonstrate that his word is good and that there is an inheritance for those who choose to willingly lay at the feet of one who has declared that you are wanted and loved.

Questions I have heard before.

- I had a friend ask me these questions in response to a comment I made about people not voting. This is not the first time I have heard questions of this nature and I am not the great theologian, but I try to think and I am willing to let God answer the question, as he does a more adequate job than I. I put this persons questions in bold type.
- If you live life at all, and try to make a stance for God, then you will have to deal with questions of this nature yourself. I could not answer them in 30 seconds or less, they deserved so much more.
- How do you say to someone, "God is in control" without attempting to define that?
The world looks at what goes on around them and sees an evil, destructive entity with no future hope, and therefore lives for the moment. If you took the time to really ask "who are you?" you would find a God that has and always will be there, consistently for us. What clouds our understanding of God is how deeply embedded our thinking is in how things feel to us.
One of the things that scripture tells us is that God is love. That is not a feeling but actions based on devotion toward another; we are the others. God sent his Son to die for us. Why? So that we, the others that had no hope without Him, could live. If Jesus willingly paid the price of his life, and that felt horrible, why then can we not see the consistency and pattern of a God that is telling the truth, and really does have a plan for our lives. That plan concludes with those who choose to accept this fact,  living in his presence.

"Ok so, if we are not of this world, why would we participate in what the J W's refer to as a , worldly activity.."
 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Romans 13:1 (NIV)

 Yep, your right, you are not required to vote, but what if by some fluke that "one", that is holding back the man of lawlessness mentioned in the scripture passage below, is tied in with you and you do nothing. Lawlessness is not just happening on the mean streets around you. Guys like Harry Reid, who just won reelection in Nevada, has made it very clear that he alone establishes what a democratic process looks like. He pushed through a yes vote on a bill, without a majority vote, even though the entire process was challenged and caught on video. There is only one thing, short of God striking someone like that dead, that will stop him, and that is an informed voter. I might also add that Barney Frank, one of men that is so deeply tied in with the collapse of the housing and mortgage industry in America, was also recently reelected.

Voting was and still is our right and privilege. Voting is our voice, and though it may not be the best thing that happened, it got many of us heard, to some degree, this time. I do not have to understand everything that happens. When it comes to voting I stand back and say "really!". What part of your brain did you use to vote?, but then God is in control regardless of how it turns out, and that does not always feel good at the moment.

(2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, NIV)
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."


Another thing I found interesting. - Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:39, NIV)

Ask yourself this question, Did Moses not know that Adam had handed the earth over to Satan? What if Moses did know? We never see or hear of Moses whining, “oh dear God, do you see what the devil is doing to your people now.”

What if, even though you have a knowledge of Satan's ownership, you did just as Moses said, and went about living your life with one purpose, one will for your life, and that is that the Lord is the God in heaven and on earth below, and that there is no other. How would that change your life?

God is not the least bit threatened by Satan's possessing the earth, and if you'll notice he repeatedly asks Israel to be strong, have courage, and to possess what God had given them.

"How do you know so much about the J W's, "
 I used to frequently sit by two of them, at one of my jobs. I asked them if they voted, I believe we were voting against Jerry Brown back then, and they responded with "oh no honey, the Jehovah Witnesses don't vote, we believe the devil, the god of this world, controls the government, and therefore we will not vote." All they proved to me was that they only read and hear what they want to hear and see. The Holy Spirit mentions that in the passage from 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 that I quoted above.

"oh and don't worry I know Jesus volunteered. I read Job where it looks to me like he said he would do it. "
"Jesus himself answered this question. "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:17,18 NIV)

Jesus told them, as they stood him before Pilot, that they had absolutely no power to do anything to him outside of what God had allowed. He also told them that he could have called 10,000 Angels to come to his aid and rescue him, if he had wanted, but he did not. Why not? Simple, for God so loved the world, that he sent his son, to save the world. The law (that is whole other long oration) demanded that blood had to be spilled for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus was the sacrifice, and it was his blood that was spilled, for us.

"Oh and I wanted to ask you what bible do you read? I have 3 different ones and I use them to compare to one another,,, "
I have two programs on my computer, that I use often, to do my bible studies from, “The Word” and “Esword”, they are both free. When I am not near the computer, such as lunch time at work, I read my NIV bible. People, much more knowledgeable than me feel that the NIV is one of the best translations, but even when comparing it to some that lean toward the original I find that even the NIV missed it. For example the verse you threw at me, which implies that we are in the power of Satan, when that is not what it says at all. Those bible programs have as many translations and originals as I can stand, currently about 13, that I have downloaded. I also have one of those 4 translation bibles.

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:18-19, NIV)
This is not the best translation and here is why. Having been written in Greek, a language with no punctuation, it was translated, punctuated, and given chapters and verses. If you are going to get hung up on adding to and taking away from then it is screwed up already.
That last sentence reads more like this in the Greek, and sounds like Yoda speak. "we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil doth lie;" (1 John 5:19, YLT)

Having few other options, it is better to be lying in it than to be owned by it, and ownership is what the JW's imply. Scripture implies an inescapable position, because we exist here on this ball called earth, with it's gravitational pull. But as I said before, we are not of this world, and God is the God of heaven, and of earth.

Jesus said it to Satan as plain as day “there is no god other than God and him alone shall you serve.”

You chose to only use one portion of the paragraph, now look at the verse before the one you choose.
“We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.”

Consider some of those words.
We – those born of God, in agreement with and understanding God.

The one who was born of God – Who is that? Christ.
Look at:
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29, NIV)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15, NIV)

the one who was born of God – Who is that? The answer is Christ. Scripture tells us that he was the first born from the dead, we were second. Paul said, when you were dead in your trespasses and sins, Christ came. He wrote that to a breathing church body. That either means a spiritual state or it is totally illogical. We have been risen with Christ and made alive in him. Flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. And made to sit together with him in heavenly places. If you are standing here on earth, then again, this has to be spiritual, until the day that we join him.

Keeps him safe – Who is the him in this sentence? Anyone born of God. Still to this day, and it is only going to get worse, people are dying brutal deaths for their admission of Christ in their life. This is primarily the Muslim nations. As I read scripture and saw in the book of Revelation, a time when followers of Christ would be beheaded for professing His name, I thought that would never happen in this nation. I could see, as I read,  the tie in with Islam and it's tenets, for under sharia law they are permitted and commanded to behead the infidel, that is anyone not accepting the Islamic ideals.

Our not voting, and standing by as elected officials decided to declare that this nation is no longer a nation under God, but a nation of acceptance of nonsense, therefore the Muslim's in this nation of ours have cried foul when anyone speaks against their religion of hatred in any way. If they gain control, and the fact that we have a Muslim president should demonstrate their ability to do that, then the time will come when, in this country, you will have your head lopped for not denying Christ.
Having said all that, then what does it mean to “keep him safe”? Again, it has to be primarily spiritual. Certainly God moves in the physical realm. He, for some reason, saw fit to preserve Balaam (you can find his story in the book of Numbers)  by having his Ass talk to him, but truth is we are more concerned about how things feel than God is.

And the evil one – Satan. He is not everywhere. He was an angel of light and beautiful. He is now the destroyer of anything that looks like God. God is the only one that has the ability to be everywhere. So Satan cannot chase you around personally. I am sure that many of the other fallen angels, and so called demons can take care of that for him.

cannot harm him – This is perhaps one of the hardest parts to understand, because we know that people do suffer. Consider: if a representative of the Mafia carries out a crime, is not the Mafia also held responsible? So, if demons and people can carry out the devils plans and wishes, harming people, is he not responsible too. How do we say to someone, you will be kept safe and the evil one cannot harm you? Is the answer a spiritual one and not necessarily a physical one.
When God made man, look the story up in Genesis, he made man in his image. No man has seen God and lived to talk about it, so do we really have any solid ideas of what God looks like? But we do know that Jesus said “God is a spirit” therefore man had to be a spirit, initially. Wouldn't it stand to reason that God is more concerned with the spirit man first.

and have you ever watched the history channel on some of those bible history, with all the books that weren't put in, and that makes me wonder cause of the way the bible ends with "don't take any thing out or add any thing to it,"

 Consider: The "bible”, that part which we call the old testament, was written in Septuagint Greek, but that made it “common” in the mind of the Jewish/Christian priesthood, because ordinary folk could read it, and it was consider sacred, so it was translated into Hebrew, and the priesthood, the same mindset that put Jesus on the cross, made violent attempts at destroying the Septuagint versions and the people that had copies of it (there weren't many). All of this was of course prior to the New Testament, which was written in Koine Greek, a language of the people, and a very precise language, about 30 years after Christ ascended into heaven. Interesting how they weren't books so much as they were letters. I wonder how that affects a demand like taking away from or adding to.

Many of the books, that you wonder about, have been analyzed and compared, both for content, writing style, Paul had a particular style, writing most of the new testament, and their referencing of known factors, such as historic names and faces. Try reading Josh McDowell's books about why we can believe that the bible is real, or Lee Stroebel's case for the bible. It is called facts and evidence. Most of the Greek literature that we base our lives on, has less evidence to back it up, and over 1000 years between the event and it's recorded history. The New Testament was written soon enough to still have eyewitnesses; John, the disciple, was one of them.

“I do study all the time and I suppose that is why I always have so many questions, I don't trust to much of any thing, especially my own brain.”
My truster is broken as well, but I do trust God, even though I honestly do not understand many of the why's of this earth.
Unfortunately trusting was Israel's problem as well.

Moses returns after being gone for 40 years and tells Israel and Egypt that God spoke to him, and that he was to be the one to lead Israel into deliverance. They had to trust, but none of us trusts, that is the sad effect of living in a broken condition on a broken earth; a pretty hopeless condition without Christ, thank God we have him.

How did Moses/God get Israel to trust him? Show them powerful signs, and God did. Many Egyptians lost their first born. I can just hear them, do not tell me what to do with your bloody wiping around my door posts. And so they died. As Egypt wept, Israel left, but did they leave convinced? NO. They choose to not trust, whining and complaining, and therefore wandered for forty years in desert until those that would not trust were killed off. They were not permitted to enter the land promised to them. Even Moses had to die without entering, because he did not trust. (The incident over the rock releasing water). Only two of the originals were allowed to cross over, Joshua and Caleb. Interesting thing about Caleb, he was not born a Jew, he became one.

If I could define at least one desire of my heart, it is to see God's people have a zeal for his word, and to be able to accurately and effectively convey who he is. No, I do not always feel like I do that very well, but I put my nose in the book constantly. I ask questions of what I read, knowing that God can handle my questions. Writing things like this helps to establish who he is in my own life.
I know that he cares about us, about me, but then there is that broken truster issue. When you take all the curve balls that life throws at you, and then add the mistakes that I committed by myself, well let's just say that it is a toxic mix to the mind. The thing that gives me any hope at all is that Jesus did what he said he would do, and by extension God did. He promises us a new life, and therefore it will be.

It becomes difficult at best to love others when you are not very good at loving yourself, but actions speak louder than words and I wrote this in hopes that perhaps you come to a better understanding of who God is.
Ozzie

Trying to understand God's forgiveness

Numbers 14
As I read this I am seeing something that I don't understand.

The twelve spies have come back and ten of them have discouraged the people. Quite the rebellion ensues; a mutiny, falling short of an action plan. And then there is talk of stoning the leadership. No less than murder.

Verse 11 has God responding by saying, “how long will they treat me with contempt?”

Moses intercedes on their behalf (not that they deserved it.)

Look at verse 20. In response to Moses' request God says, “I have forgiven them, as you have asked. Nevertheless – not one of these who saw my glory will enter the promised land.”

Now look at 2Samuel 12:13
David has committed adultery with Bathsheba, had her husband murdered, and now there is a child resulting from his sin. David chooses not to look at what he has done and therefore God sends Nathan the prophet. David responds to Nathan with, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan's response, “the Lord has taken away your sin..., but because you have.... the son born to you will die.”

Questions:
1. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
1a.)In either case, Israel's or David's, where did this take place? We do not see it.
The shedding of blood has to go back all the way to Adam. There is a logical path in that, and it becomes visible when you choose to follow the path through Abel and his brother Cain. The teaching did not die that day and I believe that Israel was aware of it.
You can see God brought this back to Israel through Moses, and that Moses made it clear that the shedding of blood had to take place for the forgiveness of sins.
This of course, is our life, for Christ's blood was shed for us.
Assumptions:
A. That Moses' intervention and God's response were all immediate.
B. David must have offered a sacrifice for the sins he had committed.

Considerations:
a.) No cell phones, so for the mutiny to escalate through over a million people time has to pass. God's punishment was upon the entire congregation. Why would he punish those not guilty? That would imply that they all conspired, not just a handful. There is nothing to make us believe that anyone repented of theirs sins through sacrifice.
b.) Although David may have sacrificed what destroys that theory is that Nathan had to be sent by God. And, until confronted, David had kept this all a big secret, therefore, no admission of guilt. Confronted and caught, David makes his declaration, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

In either case, with my physical eye, I see people coming against people; God sees it differently. David made a truthful statement and yet odd, in that he had sinned against several people in order to get what he wanted, and he made no mention of that. Perhaps what was important was what the biblical writers, led by the Holy Spirit, placed upon the page for us to see, that David had sinned against God. In Numbers, while the mutiny against Moses is unfolding, God tells Moses that the people have sinned against God.
If you consider that scripture tells us that we are in Christ, then sins committed against us, are committed against Christ, and ultimately against the Father as well. Israel nor David had the relationship with the Father that we have, and yet God took any actions performed against those He considers his, to be actions against him.

We have a relationship that we do not fully comprehend, with a God that we can only understand through the Spirit. Having his life in us by accepting our adoption through Christ, puts that Spirit within. As loving as we want to perceive God to be, he is the last person that you want against you, as we go on the rampage against those who belong to him. And here is the worst part. It is difficult to tell who it is that belongs to him, because not all of us have managed to stay out of the mud puddles that life has put in our path, and some do not have the money to buy the right clothes that make us appear holy.
I have been taken back as people that I never expected to have a relationship or understanding of God, have made some rather bold, unexpected statements. They have in those moments demonstrated a boldness that I desire, as my fleeting self-righteousness gets blown out the window.