A voice in the wilderness

What you will find here are thoughts and commentary on what I happen to be studying. As for me, I have two daughters who have grown up without me. Education wise, I have two AS degrees, one being in Horticulture, but no bachelors degree. The longest time spent at any one job was 15 years. Sadly, I have not been the great success I had dreamed I would be, but I find that I am becoming more content as my relationship with the Father God grows. God's word is my passion.

Saturday, August 31, 2019

I got a message from a friend that I felt needed to be addressed.

I received a message that read like this - ( I wanted to say "sort of" because I had to make it legible.)

“I told some people that Jesus fights two battles, one by himself, and then Armageddon.”

Picture yourself standing there with a sandwich in one hand and a soda in the other, and someone comes up to you and accosts you with an assertion like this, expecting an answer. It's difficult, at best, to come up with an answer, especially when they are creating their questions and assertions from multiple locations in the Bible, and they often take the scriptures out of context.

These people responded with, “Are you sure.” To which he said, “Yes, turn your bible to Isaiah 63:3,4, and then look at Revelation 19:13.”

So let's look at Isaiah 63:3,4.

Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples, there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And, their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment. (Isaiah 63:2-3 NASB)

I am not clear if this next response came from his church or if this is an argument he had in his head. Knowing that we have had conversations like this, I would say it was in his head. He added that some say it's the blood of the saints, while others say it is His blood. To this, my friend responds, “Not so; it is the blood of His enemies.” To this statement, those people who asked him agreed and left. They probably staggered out bewildered.

My acquaintance, who took this last statement to a couple of Pastors at a Calvary Chapel, agreed.

An obvious aspect of this passage is that at least the lower half of the garment of the Messiah is soaked in blood.

The scriptural narrator asks, “Why are your garments like the one who treads in the winepress?”

Consider that there was a time when people actually stomped the juice out of grapes. If they were smart, they would lift up any outer garment so that it would not get covered in juice. Perhaps, in the process of making juice, some would splash up onto your clothing, but to merely allow your clothing to become completely inundated with this blood-red juice is preposterous.

What does this victor, coming from a battle soaked in the enemy's blood, say about the description we see in Isaiah 63:2-3?

It says He went into battle, prepared for battle, and that He really did not care about the outcome of His clothing. Perhaps, knowing that He would win, His clothing then becomes a symbol of victory and conquest.

Based on what the passage says, we can figure out who this is.

So, what clues are we given to identify who went into the bloody battle?

Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." (Isaiah 63:1 NASB)

With garments of glowing colors,
One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength.
It is I who speaks in righteousness,
Mighty to save.

All of these descriptives speak of Jesus.

Who is with Him in Isaiah 63:3-4?

Perhaps the question is, does anyone have to be with Him? The answer to that is NO.

But for the doubter, I refer you to Exodus 12:12 NASB, where it says, “For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments--I am the LORD.”

The verse above makes it quite clear that there was NO death angel; it was Jesus, and He slaughtered all who were not covered by the blood.

So the answer to the question, who was with Him, is NO ONE else.

Revelation 19:13 is the other reference given by my acquaintance, but I will add verse 14 for clarity.

He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. (Revelation 19:13-14 NASB)

Though we can't be sure at this point, it sounds like the same blood-covered person we saw in Isaiah 63:3-4.

In Revelation 16, we see the end of the final judgments being poured out of the bowls. The preparations for the Battle of Armageddon are made because of a vial in the sixth bowl.

Revelation 16:12-16 NASB (12) The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. (13) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; (14) for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (15) ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.") (16) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

In Revelation 16:17-21 The seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done." While horrendous things are still happening, the central focus is Babylon, or, should I say, the Babylon system. (Keep in mind that the love of money is the root of all evil.)

Chapters 17 and 18 of Revelation focus on the downfall of the Babylon system.

There are some very telling facts about this greed and lust.

Revelation 18:3 NASB "For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality."

The system collapses in one hour.

Revelation 18:9-10 NASB (9) "And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, ... For in one hour your judgment has come.'

If you have been watching the news, this should sound familiar.

The economic system completely collapses.

Revelation 18:11-17 NASB

There is an aspect of this that I find deeply troubling, as it implicates the wealthy of the earth in the death of the innocents.

Revelation 18:24 NASB "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

“All who have been slain on the earth.” This should be an eye-opening statement for everybody.

So, as we come into Revelation 19, there are no more judgments to be poured out, merely the termination of the judgments.

Watch what happens.

Revelation 19:1-2 NASB After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; (2) BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER."

In Heaven, they are rejoicing. The Babylon system is gone; His judgments have come; And, He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants.

How can it be said, "it is done," especially since there is one more battle to be waged?

By Heaven's standards, this mess is done, for God always looks toward the future (Abraham is a good example of that.)

Revelation 19:6-9 NASB "Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. (7) "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." (8) It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (9) Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me, "These are true words of God."

I have heard and sung songs about the marriage of the Lamb since I was a child. Some have conveyed that at the rapture of the church, we get to sit down to a seven-year meal. Sadly, that is not the case, and the meal does not sound so appetizing either.

Let me demonstrate.

Revelation 19:11-13 NASB (11) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness, He judges and wages war. (12) His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. (13) He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."

Look at that. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood. Everything about Him is brightness and glory, and His name is the Word of God. Pure majesty.

But now watch this. Here, He is not alone.

Revelation 19:14 NASB "And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean were following Him on white horses."

I cannot make absolute statements that compare what we see in Isaiah 63 and Revelation 19 and say they are the same thing. (But I will work on it.)

Watch the descriptions as they unfold.

Revelation 19:15 NASB From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so He may strike down the nations with it. The saints, clothed in white, otherwise known as the bride, are a part of the army that comes with Him, but we never see them in battle. There might be two acceptable explanations for that.

Since we are in Christ, then we, too, partake in this battle.
The most reasonable alternative to a group battle is that sword that proceeds from His mouth.

So, if you have been waiting patiently for the marriage supper of the lamb, then enjoy this.

Revelation 19:17-18 NASB (17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid heaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, (18) so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."

Meat-eating birds are called to eat the flesh of mighty men, horses of war, those who sit on them, and everyone else – both great and small, who chose to fight against God that day. I have had this discussion before: He only kills the fighters that day. As always, the religious come against me with tradition and false teachings they have learned.

But here is what the Scripture says,

Revelation 19:19-21 NASB (19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. (20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. (21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So what do we see in Revelation 19:19-21?

The beast is the Antichrist, a Muslim leader.
The kings of the earth. This can be Muslim kings but may include the Presidents of Venezuela or the leaders of China and North Korea.
They are assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
The beast was seized, along with the false prophet, and these two, very specifically, were seized and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The rest - those gathered for war, were killed with the sword that came out of Jesus' mouth.

Friday, August 23, 2019

I was asked, how do you study; that and, would you lead us in a Bible study. So, here is an introduction and overview of the first four chapters of Romans.

On August 11, 2019, Pastor Jon Maurer's sermon was:
"A couple of things I wished I had known about reading the Bible."

The irony of this is, I already knew these things.
Simply put, I learned them in the school of hard knocks, and I am not done with my education. At this point in my life, I have been studying and looking at scripture intensely for twelve years.

In the process of reading scripture for this time period, is that I wrote about what I perceived and strived to get an accurate picture of who God and Jesus are, that and I asked God a lot of hard questions. All of my questions were answered.

A friend of mine recently asked me, how do you study, and could you lead us in a Bible study?

What my Pastor delivered that following Sunday morning, was a plainly worded, concise technique for study, and so I included that information to along with my overview of the first four chapters of Romans. As a side note, isn't amazing how the Holy Spirit orchestrates events in the background.
By the way – I realize that I could be writing to the theology trained student, as well as, those who may never pick up a Bible, and so I try to keep it intelligent and yet simple.

Notes I took on Pastor Jon's sermon.

The Bible was written for us, not to us.

This is a significant statement, as it moves scripture out of the hallowed halls and into our hands.
It removes the sterility that we have imposed on scripture, and it is a unique perspective from which to start any Bible study, as this makes scripture very personal.

The meaning of the text is embedded in its original, historical context.

Context comes in two forms.

One of those is in the passages themselves; for example: In Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus is answering questions that the disciples asked. (Remove the idea that at this point there were only twelve. Now, when the context began there have been twelve or fewer, but let's try to imagine the possibility of more) The context of Jesus' answer initiates in Matthew 21, where Jesus, in fulfilling prophecy, is about to enter Jerusalem, riding on an unridden donkey - the high-end vehicle of the day. Wow, the disciples were excited; Judas is elated, and the crowd is going crazy. Why? Because they perceived Him as the warring Messiah scripture spoke of. But follow the story, for what did He do? He threw people out of the temple courts and entered into a three day, verbal battle with the same people, that would soon have Him killed not realizing that they were offering Him up as the Passover sacrifice. (You should intently consider the idea and meaning of Jesus, that afternoon, being offered up as the Passover sacrifice. Remember, the Passover was initiated while God's chosen people are still slaves in Egypt. It was the blood of that lamb, painted on the doorposts of each home, that prevented the death of the those incorporated because they were under the covering of the blood. Note: I used the word incorporated because we got outstanding men like Caleb, who was not a Jew when this process started.)

The other form of context is the historical and cultural side. In the case of Jesus, in Matthew's gospel, the disciples - Jews, were so undone by the last three days, knowing full well that Jesus' actions could spill over on to them also, had no idea what to say as they walked relatively quietly away to the Mount of Olives. They said to Jesus, look at the mind-blowing construction techniques of the Temple. This thing should stand forever is the implied remark. Jesus responded to that with this:

"Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them,

"Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:1-3 NASB)

The disciples asked two pointed questions; both of which were explicitly Jewish oriented.

So the question you should ask next is, what does that look like for us today?

Perhaps at this point, I should tell you that the Pastor's overall theme was, understanding the writings of the Apostle Paul, based on his letter to Philemon.

In the study on Romans, that I have included, I cover, to some degree, the historical context on the Book of Romans.

A massive piece of evidence comes from Romans 1:1, where Paul begins his typical introduction.
Here he says, I Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ. Again, I cover this below. This study technique also works exceptionally well when studying the book of Romans.

The Bible is a context-rich form of communication.

What does that mean?

It means that everything has an initiating question or point of conversation, and though directed at a specific audience at the moment, it still has implications for us today.

For example, the book of Revelation is charged with context. It is a book written to Jews, using terminology that would have been common to them, and yet it applies primarily to us today. The imagery is nothing new to a Jew and has common ties with the prophecies of Daniel among others - hence, the context. (Naturally, we struggle with multi-headed beasts, although we are more than eager to watch bizarre things like that on the movie screen.)

Context is what links us back to the original thought and intent.

Doctor Chuck Missler ThD., used to say, "The Bible is an integrated, coded, message system.” That means, that the messages in the scripture, though thousands of years apart are integrally linked by God, into one all-encompassing picture, in which God wins.

Pastor Jon's tips: (Every week he has tips. These are designed to give you a practical way to put the sermon into action.)

Get a Bible reading plan – like the You Version app.

In reality, this means be deliberate in your reading. If necessary, force yourself to invest quality time daily.

Dig into the Bible passages that make your radar go off, and then dig a little deeper.

I have a friend that seems to bounce back and forth in scripture. I understand why he does it, but when he asks questions, they are combinations of multiple thoughts and contexts. Sadly, he is often confused.

No one is telling you to ignore boring passages, however, when you find a passage that speaks to you dismantle the verse; look at the Hebrew or Greek definitions of the simplest of words in a concordance, and find their meanings. Then, look for other examples of the same thing.

A tip - Since much of what we read, is prophecy, then you need to understand that to the Jewish mindset, prophecy is not a one-time event. The Jews looked for, and found acceptance in, patterns and repetition; therefore, when reading something prophetic, look for the parallels. Daniel and Revelation are good examples of such similarities.

Read for transformation.

Try to understand the author's original intent; this will be necessary for us to apply the text to our lives today.

Having been raised in the church, I had heard all the stories. There were many things that bothered me, and, as some would say, I felt like I was losing my faith.

You see, church/religion built an image in me of an angry God. Read John's gospel, and you will quickly see that Jesus - God's representation upon the earth, demonstrated and vocalized the fact that God is love. John's gospel is also the one which gave me the direct association and recognization, that Jesus is God.
You may not get what I just told you, but this transformed my thinking and life.

Another aspect of my religious education, involved David, the shepherd.
Did you catch how I did not refer to him as the shepherd boy? That is because he was not a boy. Sorry if that blows your entire understanding of theology out of the water, but an aspect of our growing into maturity is to comprehend the reality of situations and deal with it.

Why am I comfortable saying these things? Because, as you read for transformation, you will become aware that David's resume, was read to Saul by one of his trusted people, who told Saul that he knew a man, who had killed a bear, and a lion, with his bare hands; and, the man is a skillful guitar player, who can calm your nerves. (Right, they didn't have guitars back them, they were Lyres.)

So, all Saul knows is that David is a man - perhaps a young man, but that is irrelevant.

Saul, upon meeting David, hires him and makes him his ARMOR bearer as well. David then traverses back and forth between Saul and his families sheep farm.

On one of those missions, his father, Jesse, gives him a care package for David's brothers. However, on this occasion, Goliath, of the Philistines, is standing on the battle line daily and cursing the God of Israel. Sadly, no one in Israel, even their king, Saul, who scripture tells us was head and shoulders above any man in Israel, dares not to challenge the beast.

Has anything physical changed about David since he has met Saul? NO. So why then does Saul refer to David as a youth?
Could it be that is because David was a young man and not a seasoned veteran?
Did Saul forget about the bear and the lion?
And then, there is that malarky about David being four foot tall, and the upper body plate armor merely fell to the ground around him.
Get real, if that was a reality, Saul would have never offered for the same young man that was his armor-bearer, to wear his armor.

You should know the rest of the story, as David kills Goliath by cutting his head off with the big man's own sword. I skipped some details, but you can read those aspects on your own.

That being said, let's look, once again, at Romans, and see how and if it can transform us.
What follows are the notes I made for myself to lead the Bible study.
_________________________________________________________________________________

The letter to the church in Rome opens, and Paul, as he always does, introduces himself. However, this introduction has a slightly different tone to it. In Romans 1:1, he states that he is, "a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News."

This introduction, especially to what we will learn to be a majority Jewish community of believers, establishes Paul's attitude, humility, and a touch of arrogance, all at the same time. It should also speak to a Jewish understanding of slaves and how the Jews treated the Gentiles (which was right up there with slaves.)

Shaul/Paul had every reason to brag about his understanding and Jewishness.

What rights does a slave have?

First off, think about the response of the hearers two thousand years ago, when:

Slavery was not an issue and the reality was that slavery was a common and accepted way of life.
Slaves had no standing in the community.
Slaves had NO voice about anything. There, of course, may have been benevolent slave owners, and in Paul's writing to Philemon, he plays upon that idea.
To speak out against slavery was scandalous.
You no longer had any claim to parental rights.
And it was almost as if you could not be seen.

This introduction by Paul is crucial because of the audience, as we will soon see.

If the Jews saw the Gentile believers as nothing more than slaves, then how were they treating these new converts?

Where is the love?

In Romans 1:9-12 we see Paul stating one of the reasons for writing this letter,
“that he may impart to them some spiritual gift, for the purpose of establishing them; and that he (Paul) may be encouraged together with them by mutual faith.”

What do you think this passage is trying to say?

At this point, I would be sitting in front of you, able to see your facial expressions as you begin to comprehend the abhorrence of such a mentality; and, I want to hear why you think Paul would have said this.

I have a policy of not asking questions without having an answer, and I think the answer is that he wants to get his Jewish brethren completely submerged in this gospel of mercy and grace; and, to make them understand that God has leveled the playing field, and no one gets priority simply because of heritage.

Paul's wanting to lay hands upon, share the gospel of Jesus Christ with them more fully, and by the laying on of hands, show them love, and actually impart a spiritual gift of understanding, just as he had received.

Having recently sat through at least three weeks of history on Rome and the Roman Church, you would think I would have had enough, and been smarter for it. That did not happen, and I looked at it once again.

The overview tells us that Paul wrote this letter to the church in Rome, a place he never visited, around Fall of 57 AD.

We are told that Paul was writing to a vibrant church body when he wrote this letter. ??

The Epistle itself gives us scant clues about the Roman believers, except for Paul's reprimands.

Historically, we have this:

Rome was under the governance of Nero (37-68AD), but one of the most disturbing leaders Claudius, the adoptive father of Nero, was also alive and ruling.

Nero, after his father's death, became the sole Emperor in 54AD.

This immediately gets my attention, for Emperor Claudius had made it known that the Jews regularly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus – a Grecian derivative name for Christ and therefore ordered the expulsion of the Jews from Rome. What these insurrections looked like, I do not know.

Edicts, such as this, apparently only lasted until the death, or incapacitation of the Emperor who had them written. Because documentation indicates that the Jews began returning to Rome in January of 53AD, a full year before Nero is declared Emperor, we must assume some incapacity or the death of Claudius.

Does this mean Nero served in a dual leadership position over Rome? Perhaps.

So by the time Paul writes this letter to the church in Rome, they have been actively operating as a thriving church.

What is my take away from this?

Since Christ's death is the division line for time, this is a relatively short period.

How did the church spread so rapidly?

Strangely, we have Saul/Paul to thank for that.

"Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles." (Acts 8:1 NASB)

What clues do we have that help to define this body of believers?

Their association with Chrestus, as the Greeks put it. So they were followers of Christ. And, because we can associate the church with the Jewish expulsion and return, then we are looking at a church with a mix of Jew and Gentile believers.

There are statements such as:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16 NASB)

Why emphasize the Jew and then the Greeks, unless there are Gentiles in your audience?

In Romans 1:19-21 Paul is recapping how God dealt with the Jews in the beginning.
This would be wasted energy to a church filled with Gentiles – people that may not have a clue about Jewish history.

The remainder of Romans chapter one is ablaze with admonishments about the Jewish patterns of unbelief.

Why emphasize the Jew and then the Greeks, unless there are Gentiles in your audience?

In chapter two, Paul begins to make a turn, as he is now including Gentiles believers in the conversation.

When he talks about judgment, that can apply to anyone, however, to a body of believers, in which Hebrew (I assume) is the primary language, we could have some horrendous learning curves issues
.
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. (Romans 2:9-11 NASB)

In chapters three and four, Paul defines how God levels the playing field.

We assumed for years that this always applied to the world; when in fact, Paul, in chapter four, is still trying to convince the Jews that they are no better off merely because of their heritage.

This relationship we have with God works by faith.

Sadly, the realization that the Gentiles can demonstrate faith and a place in eternity must be alarming to some.

Friday, August 16, 2019

For the Lord, Himself will come down. My thoughts on a mid-tribulation rapture.

A brother in the Lord frequently argues that the church will go through the tribulation. I hate to admit it, but a book I am reading takes my brothers' side in this argument. It is written by Rabbi K. A. Schneider, a Jewish Christian, The book "The Book of Revelation Decoded," that what we see as the result of the seals being opened in Revelation 6, is divided into two parts, the judgments, and wrath. The wrath aspect, according to the Rabbi, is attributed to the bowls that the Revelation tells us are poured out.

I do not know if the Rabbi's perceptions are from personal study, or this comes from some traditional Jewish perspective of which I am not aware. I have an inquiring mind, and I need to know. Lacking sufficient evidence about ancestral beliefs, I will look into the Biblical wording about these events more closely. You see, I do not think that a reasonable man should argue with scripture, and that is what we may be seeing here. The result, this division of horrors that God is going to pour out upon the Earth may be the Rabbis attempt to avoid and work around New Testament passages such as Romans 5:8-10.

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” (Romans 5:8-10 NASB)

If I was the argumentative type, I could say, Romans 5:8-10 also speaks of eternity, as it too is salvation. The problem with that kind of thinking is that we are making God out to be very obscure, which I have come to understand that He is NOT. No, these passages are straightforward, and even more so when you look up in a concordance the meanings of the simplest of words, like saved.

Alright, what about this passage.

"For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 NASB)

Here, Paul speaks about how they turned to God; ceased to serve idols, and now serve a living and true God. But Paul is also addressing how they, too, know that there is a hope of a future with Christ in a peaceful eternity. And, because of that hope, they now wait (as if in intermission) for Jesus Christ, the Son; whom God raised from the dead, and who rescues us from the wrath to come.

This waiting is not one where you do nothing but lie around getting fat; we are proactive, encouraging others in the faith and hope. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 demonstrates that they comprehended how and why a person could have this kind of understanding. Lacking such information makes this life in Christ nothing more than a vague assumption.

In trying to argue against a mid-tribulation rapture of the church, here are some of the points I try to make.

We, as a church, have created our own problems on this issue, and here is why.

We use the word tribulation as though it is trivial; and, we use it to describe everything – including God's wrath, the seven-year period we see in Revelation.

What do I mean by trivial? Some of us think it is tribulation if you have to put a new propeller on your ski boat to get more speed out of it. Try having your family blown up in front of you as you attempt to worship the Lord.

Jesus told us, in this world, you will have tribulations, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world. An understanding that griefs are going to come, on a daily basis, is necessary information; it is information that lets me know horrendous things have the potential of coming merely because I follow Christ (I suppose the reality of a statement like this means you are proactive in your beliefs and others know what you stand for. Note, most of the problems Jesus had while he walked this Earth, came from RELIGIOUS folk, but it does not exclude the random drive-by shooting that takes the life of a young science major and a young father to be.)

We ignore passages, such as the ones I pointed out above. 1Thessalonians 1: 9-10; Romans 5:8-10.

And, we ignore Jesus words when he says,
Here, in The Complete Jewish Bible, they use the word judgment and not wrath; however, the NASB uses the word wrath.

Wrath/judgment is the Greek word orgē and means desire (as a reaching forth or the excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

If I am going to try to assess proper usage for one or more of the words that can be used to define orgē, then I have to look at the context. So let's use passion as a test. Passion is a feeling of warmth and emotion toward something or someone. We often associate passion with love; however, my college professor had a passion for plants and I could definitely tell that there were plants he dearly loved – like Japanese Maples. God, it would seem, has a passion for those He has chosen, even if means judging and punishing them for their refusal of Him and their choice to follow other gods.

This judgment is also directed at the nations (those outside of Judaism) because the nations have done their fair share of killing God's people and ignoring God. So it is easy for me to see that God's orgē is certainly one of anger, indignation, vengeance, and wrath. In other words, a violent and justifiable passion, that looks a lot like wrath.

What else did Jesus say about wrath and judgment?
Jesus said these words while standing amid religious Jews – (Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees.) These Jews, in general, did not trust the Son.

Some might say, how do you know that?

Matthew chapter two records that someone reported to King Herod, that a large caravan of Magi were coming from the East. Just the sight of these men and the potential message they could bring caused Herod grief, so when they arrived and began asking around, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” Herod immediately summoned the Jewish elders and experts in the Torah and inquired who was this King of the Jews that had been born. The elders answered promptly, for they knew with precision what the scriptures said about Jesus being born in Bethlehem and when. But did they follow after Him, as these Magi did? Not a chance.

John 3:36 states that,

“Whoever trusts in the Son has eternal life.”

Are there any assertions in the passage, as to what that eternal life encompasses? Not in this part and not at first glance. You have to pay attention to the context.

“But whoever disobeys the Son will not see that life but remains subject to God's wrath.” In the second half of the verse, we have those who are disobeying the Son. This disobedience is a direct correlation to God's chosen people. Fortunately, we who are “in Him” through adoption, are also God's chosen. The difference is that we have put our trust in the Son, and therefore have this eternal life. Disobedience, it seems, subjects you to God's wrath. And, there is the implication that these disobedient ones never put their trust in Him.

So I could say that trusting in Him eliminates the threat of wrath.

And then, there is Paul's assertions in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

Now, brothers, we want you to know the truth about those who have died; otherwise, you might become sad the way other people do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died. When we say this, we base it on the Lord's own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God's shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. (1Th_4:13-17 CJB)

There is an interesting statement in the middle of this paragraph, and it goes like this:

"When we say this, we base it on the Lord's own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died."

Since Paul did not hang out with Christ he would, therefore, have to be trusting what at least one of the disciples told him; that, or we have to assume that Christ, perhaps on the Damascus road, explained in detail all the things He told the disciples. This idea of the Damascus road event plays into the descriptions from many who have died and come back from the dead; they explain how there was an immediate download of information.

Another possibility would be the descriptions from many who have died and come back; they explain how there was an immediate download of information. That's fascinating information, but scripture tells us that our testimony has to be at the hand of two or three witnesses. Do we get that? It would seem so. Does what they say align with scripture? Now that becomes a problem. Because much of what we understand comes from the mouth of Jesus, or we are merely accepting tradition. So, while it sounds good and reasonable, I can't make a doctrine out of a dead persons testimony.

So what did Jesus say, and how can we be sure? There are apparently, only two references in the NT, and John 11:25-26 is one of them.

Yeshua said to her, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life! Whoever puts his trust in me will live, even if he dies; and everyone living and trusting in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26 CJB)

In 1Thessalonians 4:13, there is a reference to the fact that anyone who puts their trust in Jesus, will live, even if they die. Jesus took it one step further when he said, as if from another angle, "everyone living and trusting in me, will never die."

Questions and answers:

What do I make of a statement like, everyone trusting in me, will never die?

A believer never dies spiritually. Although, the reality is that no human ever really dies. Death then is merely a permanent separation from God and that is what we see in the final judgment. an intentional break in the relationship could easily be seen as a form of death (this break in the relationship is not on God's part and there is nothing set in stone until that final day, although the enemy would like you to believe that.)

This idea of spiritual death is another point that many would argue. Consider what Adam put himself through in the garden. Having heard and ignored God's directive about “that tree,” he watches the only woman he has ever known eat a fruit, that causes death. Rather blunt, but true. Adam, having listened to everything the serpent said to her, watches to see what would happen. For all he knows, death is immediate, but then, they had never experienced the death (as far as we know,) of anything. What Adam cannot see is what is going on inside her spirit; nor can he see the cellular effects on her body (this is not a movie where someone ancient has been kept alive and looking young through the “magic” of makeup. So that when death comes they disintegrate into a pile of ashes.)

Can the physical body die?

Indeed, and many have, but many, having put their trust in Christ (we see this even in the OT,) will not be hindered by timing issues or the quantity of dirt piled above you, when the call comes. Perhaps because they have a few extra feet to travel, they will lift off first and we, who are alive, will rise with them.

Then where are these dead in Christ now?

Paul did not tell us directly, but the credible argument is, that when you are absent from the body - dead, then you are present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8. Based on Paul's presentation, we can understand that physical death puts you immediately in the presence of the Lord.

Another thing to look at is the statement we find in 1Thessalonians 4:16.

“For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”

It would be rare to find a reference to some aspect of the Lord's return, or, the Day of the Lord, without a corresponding scriptural background in the OT.Jesus, in Acts, chapter one told the disciples that He would come back again for them, just as He left. The correlation is found in Zechariah 14, where we see Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives and physically touching back down; this is dramatically different from the catching away of the church, for when He comes for His church He will not physically touch down, but we will be gathered to Him in the air, in the clouds.