Paul's plan to visit the church in Rome. Romans 15:22-33

As we close out chapter 15, I feel I need to recap verses 20, 21.

My ambition has always been to preach the Good News where the name of Christ has never been heard, rather than where a church has already been started by someone else. I have been following the plan spoken of in the Scriptures, where it says, “Those who have never been told about him will see, and those who have never heard of him will understand.”
(Romans 15:20-21 NLT)

So what did Paul say in the verses above?

• That he wanted to preach in places where the name of Jesus had never been heard;
• and that he wanted to lay a foundation among people who do not have a foundation already started by someone else.
• “Those who have never been told about him will see, and those who have never heard of him will understand.”

Why would someone else's foundation be a bad thing?
In my last post, I asked a couple of questions along this line of thinking. The answer is, of course, it wouldn't unless they were laying a foundation that is dramatically different than what Paul has been laying and, most likely, in opposition.

The next question then is, what did Paul's foundation look like?

The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18 NLT)

Obviously, the cross is central to who He is and who we are.

No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God—his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.” But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his, Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. (1 Corinthians 2:7-10 NLT)

The mystery; the things God has prepared for us; all of it has been revealed to us (those who follow after Him) by His Spirit.

Although he was crucified in weakness, he now lives by the power of God. We, too, are weak, just as Christ was, but when we deal with you, we will be alive with him and will have God’s power. (2 Corinthians 13:4 NLT)

Jesus was crucified in weakness; at least that is how the world perceives it. But, he now lives by the power of God, and we also live through that power.

My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20 NLT)

In associating ourselves with the life of Christ, we became baptized (I am talking about water baptism, although NOT mandatory.) In doing that, we presented ourselves as dead in Christ. It doesn't end there, as we, by the same process, are made to rise with Him. Yes, it is all representational while we are here on earth, but there is a day coming when He shall gather those who are awaiting Him, to Himself.

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. (Galatians 5:24 NLT)

This foundation stone that we see in Galatians 5:24 is confusing for many because we get it preached to us in a manner that leads you to believe that you MUST live like this, and we cannot. Yes, the Holy Spirit, living inside of you, will lead and guide us into all truth, and, we are told, we cannot abide in sin. But the reality is that we will be somewhat tortured by our constant failures as we try to hit the bullseye. (Missing the bullseye is deemed to be sin.)

Mercy is certainly an aspect of that foundation.
It is an aspect that seems in opposition to the laws of God, that we find in the Old Testament; the mercy is there, but it is merely cloaked. Search within the letters that Paul wrote, and you will 19 references to Mercy; 22 if you include the letter to the Hebrews.
Here are a few.

1Corinthians 7:25  the Lord in his mercy has given me wisdom that can be trusted, and I will share it with you.

2Corinthians 4:1  Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way, ...

Galatians 1:6 God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. ...

Ephesians 2:4-6 (NLT)  But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. ...

Colossians 3:12  God chose you to be the holy people he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, ...

1Timothy 1:16  God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. ...

Titus 3:5 he saved us, ... because of his mercy.

Hebrews 4:16 let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

So, to make this brief, the foundation Paul preached is:

• the cross,
• our being in Him,
• hope,
• and mercy.

If you think about the ramifications of those simple words, and what they mean to our relationship with the Father, they speak volumes.

With all that in mind, Paul says,

Rom 15:22  This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you. 

Here is where the NASB entitles the next section:

Paul's Plan to Visit Rome

As I sat through a book study on Acts, I never saw it as a planned visit. I saw phrases like this: “the Holy Spirit would not let them preach in Asia;” and, “the Spirit of Jesus would not let them.” On one occasion we got this,

During the night, Paul had a vision of someone from Macedonia who was standing there and begging him, "Come over to Macedonia and help us!" After Paul had seen the vision, we began looking for a way to go to Macedonia. We were sure that God had called us to preach the good news there. (Acts 16:9-10 CEV)

Scripture does give us a well-spaced chain of events, that demonstrates Paul's desire to go to Rome.
In Acts 18:2 – 19:21 we learn that Priscilla and Aquila, acquaintances who have become close friends of Paul, had been forced out of Rome, along with all the other Jews, by the order of Emperor Claudius. This story ends with this: “Paul decided to visit Macedonia and Achaia on his way to Jerusalem. Paul had said, "From there I will go on to Rome."

In Acts 20:16 we see Paul migrating back to Jerusalem because “He was in a hurry and wanted to be in Jerusalem in time for Pentecost.” At almost every stop the Jews rose up against him when he spoke. Acts 21:10-11 finds Paul north of Jerusalem in Caesarea. After several days, the prophet Agabus, who came from Judea, south of Jerusalem, took Paul's belt, and with it tied up his own hands and feet, while saying, "The Holy Spirit says that some of the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will tie up the man who owns this belt, and, they will also hand him over to the Gentiles." The Gentiles, in this case, were the Roman guards.

The trek now has Paul, a prisoner, headed to Rome, as he, by right of citizenship, could appeal his case to Caesar, which he did. Storms, shipwrecks, and snakes; it sounds like an Indiana Jones movie.

In the midst of this journey, which I am sure some would see as nothing short of negative, “the Lord stood beside Paul and said, Don't worry! Just as you have told others about me in Jerusalem, you must also tell about me in Rome.” And that takes us to Acts 23:11.

Paul may have interacted with the very people he longed to see, but we do not see him physically going to their meeting place. What we do see, is that Paul got to preach to the virgin territory that Isaiah spoke of, the Emperor himself.

I give you Eugene Peterson's take on Paul's recollection.

Romans 15:23-29 MSG  But now that there is no more pioneering work to be done in these parts, and since I have looked forward to seeing you for many years,  I'm planning my visit. I'm headed for Spain, and expect to stop off on the way to enjoy a good visit with you, and eventually have you send me off with God's blessing.  First, though, I'm going to Jerusalem to deliver a relief offering to the Christians there.  The Greeks—all the way from the Macedonians in the north to the Achaians in the south—decided they wanted to take up a collection for the poor among the believers in Jerusalem.  They were happy to do this, but it was also their duty. Seeing that they got in on all the spiritual gifts that flowed out of the Jerusalem community so generously, it is only right that they do what they can to relieve their poverty.  As soon as I have done this—personally handed over this "fruit basket"—I'm off to Spain, with a stopover with you in Rome. My hope is that my visit with you is going to be one of Christ's more extravagant blessings.

Paul, by way of this letter, asks these fellow believers in Rome to pray, with some urgency, for him.

Romans 15:30 NLT  Dear brothers and sisters, I urge you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to join in my struggle by praying to God for me. Do this because of your love for me, given to you by the Holy Spirit.

Here is what he asked them to pray for.

Romans 15:31-32 NLT 

Pray that I will be rescued from those in Judea who refuse to obey God.

Pray also that the believers there will be willing to accept the donation I am taking to Jerusalem.

Then, by the will of God, I will be able to come to you with a joyful heart, and we will be an encouragement to each other.

Stop and think about what he asked them. He asked to be rescued from those who refuse to obey God.

Doesn't that imply that in some manner, whether Jewish or a follower of Christ, they are refusing to obey God?

Several months ago I was involved in, what the leader called, a man-cave. It was just a bunch of guys who found a place they could, under the guise of being in a Christian environment, act like they were in a bar. Yep, I said it. I was already deep into this study of Romans and had seen how the law was still a part of our lives. In this mancave setting, I saw a horrendous correlation between what Paul said, is this law that is written upon our hearts, and an unrestrained concept of mercy and grace. This unrestrained version is a grace that some, not only preach but feel it gives them the right to refuse to obey God's law. Much to no avail, I pointed out that Jesus came to fulfill the law, NOT do away with the law. That law is God's law, and, as I said, it is written upon our hearts. It is what keeps you from going completely over the edge.

Why would believers, even if they are from the South, so to speak, in Judea, try to block Paul from taking a donation to Jerusalem?
To be honest, we don't have an answer to that. One thing that jumps out in my mind, is that Judea suffered a huge economic blow from a recent famine, and may be in a hoarding mode. (I covered this in the previous post.) You also noticed that I used the phrase, “the South.” Here in America, “the South” still carries overtones of bigotry, slavery, hard-drinking, and some generally rough characteristics. Now whether that is the case here, I don't know, but it could be. And there is one other thing. How would you know if someone was there to swindle you? Swindlers are not something new, as SIN has always been with us, and a swindler always thinks that someone is out to swindle them.

This leads me to a pastor of mine. Although I do not call him a friend, he is a decent and generous man. There were services when the Holy Spirit would be so evident, that he would forget to take up an offering; and yet, because he made sure the church tithed on the income they took in, we, as a church, were always able to pay our bills. Offerings were taken up to build in Mexico, and so we built; of all the things I have done in my life, that was the most rewarding. And, most recently, although an anonymous person had financed the construction of the building we use, and this financing had a ridiculously low-interest rate, with no pressure to pay it back, he once again took up an offering, because he felt strongly that we needed to pay this person off, and in rather short haste, we, as a church body did just that. The point here is this, we, as a church, learned to trust this pastor's financial leadership. Is this the case with Paul? We don't know.

Paul, as is his habit in closing, says,

Romans 15:33 NLT  And now may God, who gives us his peace, be with you all. Amen.

It's not because we followed the law. Galatians 2:16-19

Yes, I am aware, I already covered 2 Galatians 2:16, but there is always that one last thing, and I am trying to keep the posts relatively short. Read this verse from one of the standards like the NIV, and you get a very impersonal feel. I feel as though I have to read it several times to understand the meaning.

Galatians 2:16 NIV know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

So I opted to try the Easy to Read Version and found that it makes the point without all the religious doublespeak.

“So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, because we wanted to be made right with God. And we are right with him because we trusted in Christ—not because we followed the law. I can say this because no one can be made right with God by following the law.”

Why would anyone want to put their faith in another?

Perhaps out of necessity; possibly their words were convincing; or maybe, they were charismatic and dressed nice. Short of some miraculous vision, one in which you see Jesus (It happens daily,) few of us have seen Him. No one could describe him as a well dressed, handsome man.

Isaiah 53:2 NASB For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

There is a method of approaching others about the gospel in which you, in a sense, defend the message of Jesus with good, solid arguments. This approach is referred to as Apologetics. While I find it interesting that someone can stand toe to toe with some argumentative blowhard, it is not my cup of tea, that and I see my memory to be borderline useless anymore.

As I have read the Bible I never really saw God finding a need to play the Apologetics card. Instead, He merely said, “As for me”; after making that statement He just went on to fulfill the promises made, regardless of what the person He made the covenant with would do. (And yes, I get it, that many of those promises took hundreds of years in some cases.) If you were to ask me, why do you trust God, or, how could you put your faith in Him? I would have to say because He has consistently stayed faithful to His Word. Simply put, He is believable. Take Jesus, for example; He told the disciples what He was going to go through and why. It's evident that most of those who traveled with Him did not understand what He was telling them, but it did not slow Him down. He still rose from the dead, and many witnessed to the fact that He appeared to them, alive.

All these things give me reasons to believe Him, and I have.

Paul says,

“So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, because we wanted to be made right with God.”

I think, in some way, I wanted to be right with Him. Growing up in church, we went down front to pray, and there repented every week, as though the power of God never took root in us. See, this is what I am talking about when I tell you that religion is filled with false teachings. Sure, the pastor may stand in front of and say you are forgiven, but then you wait for next week because they will tell you what a sinner you are. Understand something. When you put your faith in Christ Jesus, it is a permanent gesture on your part. The Father engraves you on his hand, and you are ever before Him.

I contend that this book we carry around, (at least some of us do,) is a profoundly Jewish book. The subject matter carries a Jewish style at every turn. Galatians 2:17 is one of those places we can see this.

Galatians 2:17 NASB "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

“if, while seeking to be justified in Christ,”

The Jews considered the Gentiles to be wholly idolatrous and lost causes to God. Why then would a phrase like this be associated with a Gentile? It wouldn't. It would most definitely be attributable to the Jew, as their lives were little more than efforts to be justified, but not in Christ. If you take the phrase on step farther, and consider how the early church was primarily Jewish, up to the point that they balked at the possibility of Gentiles joining in without enduring Jewish rituals found under the law of Moses, such as circumcision.

So, Paul writes as a Jewish believer, that had experienced the concept of trying to be justified in Christ, while performing what constitutes works for redemption religion/faith.

“we ourselves have also been found sinners,”

Keep in mind that the sentence effectively starts with the word “if.” This phrase continues to play a huge role in our understanding of what Paul is saying.

• “we ourselves” – The Jewish community of believers.
• “have also been found sinners,”
  Wait a minute. Since we like to read this letter as though it was written to Gentiles, people who as new believers, only have an understanding and background in the newly appreciated grace of Christ, then this idea of having been found sinners, doesn't make sense. It does, however, make sense when applied to a Jewish community that thought their righteous acts (acts mandated by law, and tradition) made them holy and acceptable to God. It did not.
  I told you that the Jewish community deemed outsiders to be godless pagans. There must have been a realization in some of the Jews that without a relationship with Christ Jesus, there was no acceptance, and therefore no righteousness.
• “ is Christ then a minister of sin?”
  This statement could only apply if one had accepted the extraordinary sacrifice offered by the Father, and performed by the Son. The implication then would be that the acceptance of Yahshua as the Messiah sent by the Father, as the prophets foretold, caused many Jews to see precisely how unrighteous they indeed were.
  If acceptance causes this kind of effect, then the presumption is that Christ is the administrator of sin. Is that true? Hardly, as He merely shines a light into your soul through the Holy Spirit; that light shows you the sin.
  Stop here for a moment. Focus on the truth that “sin” is simply your missing the mark of the target at which you are shooting. We have these opportunities to hit the mark multiple times on any given day.

The Greek word for minister is diakonos and means an attendant or waiter. Christ then, would be thought of as being God's waiter? Sin is the Greek word hamartia, meaning offense or sin. So, Christ would be the waiter that brings you a variety of infractions to use? Don't be ridiculous.

Galatians 2:18 is a continuance of Paul's thought and theme, so pay attention. I am going to give you three versions, starting with one of the most difficult.

Galatians 2:18 KJV For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

If I was not paying attention, nor reading with purpose, I could readily be asking what buildings did Paul destroy? The obvious extension of such thought is that committing a crime, such as the destruction of property, makes you a transgressor; a criminal. The problem, however, is that what Paul destroyed was people; in particular, Jewish believers and their desire to trust and cling to things such as tradition and bad religion. (Stop. Am I saying that Judaism is a bad religion? Only if it tries to circumvent acceptance of the Messiah, through a multitude of added on rules and laws, which is exactly what they did.)

Galatians 2:18 CJB Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor.

The Complete Jewish Bible states the case rather bluntly when it says, “if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed.”

Question? Did Paul destroy Judaism? No! But, he did have a considerable influence on many Jews; and, this impact included the Gentiles toward the end of his life. So, when he refers to something which he destroyed, he is speaking then of changes in individual lives.

One more version, the Easy To Read version.

Galatians 2:18 ERV But I would be wrong to begin teaching again those things that I gave up.

The ERV translation makes it personal and prompts us to consider that the legalistic bondage Paul felt was primarily internal. The destruction, on the other hand, was more about what he gave up. If I were to try and figure out what Paul/Saul gave up that day, on the road to Damascus, it is all wrapped up in personal history, Jewish traditions, community status, acceptance on an intellectual level with the Pharisees, and entirely possible that monetary and family issues were impacted.

Vincent's Word Studies declares,

“Peter, by his Christian profession, had asserted that justification was by faith alone; and by his eating with Gentiles had declared that the Mosaic law was no longer binding upon him. He had thus, figuratively, destroyed or pulled down the Jewish law as a standard of Christian faith and conduct. By his subsequent refusal to eat with Gentiles he had retracted this declaration, had asserted that the Jewish law was still binding upon Christians, and had thus built again what he had pulled down.”

I also like what Finis Jennings Dake tells us.

“If I act like a Jew, and enjoin the observance of the law upon Gentiles, which I have repeatedly asserted and proved to be abolished by the death of Christ (Eph_2:14-15; Col_2:14-17; 2Co_3:6-15; Hebrews 7:11-10:18), then I build again the things I destroyed and thus make myself a transgressor, undoing my justification by faith in Christ.”

Moving forward into more muddy water; we look at Galatians 2:19.

Galatians 2:19 NASB "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

How did that come about? I am not sure, using this translation that I even understand. So, again, I indulge in alternate translations.

Galatians 2:19 CJB For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself that I died to its traditional legalistic misinterpretation, so that I might live in direct relationship with God.

In the CJB I get the sense of something I had suspected for a long time. The Torah contained the freedoms that Paul taught. Paul, who was well trained in the Torah, expounded this new freedom from example and a fresh understanding, that he obtained directly from Jesus (in a vision.) It was this understanding alone, for over ten years, that has opened my eyes to what I see in the Old Testament, a knowledge of where, Jesus, as a human, obtained the truths and freedoms He taught.

Our Monday morning study leader invited a lady to give a brief testimony. Raised a Catholic, she somehow meets a Pentecostal young man, and attempts to date him. That young man, whom I know personally, got her to come to our Holy Spirit and fire inspired church; at least it was back then. She said that during the prayer time, at the end of the service, that her now-husband said, I am going down front for prayer. Someone nearby told her, you should go down also; and, she did. That night she received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and spoke with other tongues. Apparently, she was sixteen at this point and wanted to please her parents. So when she went home and told them that she was now filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, they exploded on her. She was taken to the priests to bring her back to some form of normalcy for their family. She said, the priest talked with for a time and then stepped out to tell the parents that in time she would be back to normal. When the priest returned she began to describe to him about the love of God, and how he too should be teaching this (at which point she showed him out of Corinthians. As she spoke, she could feel the presence of God fill the room, and she began speaking to the priest in tongues. He again excused himself so that he could talk with her parents. He told them that she just spoke to me in perfect Latin. It would be important to note that she did not know Latin. Well, you might think that everything went great for her, but it did not. The parents restricted her from seeing this young man for two years; however, at the end of that time, the two got married.

What's the point of this information?

Somehow, this young lady stepped out of God's way, without realizing what she was doing, and let the “Torah” speak for itself. When it did, several lives were, in time, dramatically changed. That priest and a nun from the school she went to went on to become Holy Spirit filled Catholics (These are known as Charismatics.) As this dear lady finished her “testimony,” one of the men in our group asked a legitimate question; he said, “as a Catholic, did you read the Bible? To which, she answered rather emphatically, NO. We were taught not to, as we would misinterpret what it said.
Interesting, I have heard far too many teach a version of that very thing, in spite of sound bible teachers instructing us to let the scriptures interpret scripture. Sadly, most Christians seem to think no one can understand the Bible and therefore must have someone to teach them. This kind of thought is in opposition to what Paul tells us here in Galatians 2:19.

“For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself.”

I perceive from this statement that Paul was able to gain access to the scrolls that were so few and costly that they were only maintained at the Synagogues. There is an alternative possibility, and that would be that Paul relied upon the training and memory of what he learned as an up and coming Pharisee. In reading these scrolls, he was this time, given new and fresh insight. These words were no longer laws to govern, but guides to freedom. As I write these words, images of Jephthah crossed my mind. I have I ever seen him, no, but my mind, as I read the story in Judges 11, paints a vivid picture of someone who would fit the imagery of a motorcycle gang member. Short tempered and harsh as they could come, thanks to childhood abuse at the hands of half-brothers, he frees Israel from its oppressors and goes on to become listed as a hall-of-famer. When you read the story, you see a man guided more by grace and muscles than law (the Torah.) Even in God's story (if I may call it that,) grace and mercy shine like the sun at every turn.

A response to a comment, three years late.

I wrote this in response to a comment. I am including it for your benefit as misconceptions and false teachings run rampant. I rarely talk to anyone who has a firm grasp on what happens after the seven years of wrath. I hope you find this beneficial, and yes, it is long.

Well, here it is three years since you wrote your comment and I am finally responding to it. I wish I could tell you why but I cannot remember now. Perhaps I can chalk it up to not having enough time at that point, but as I had only recently been fired from my last job back then, you might think I had nothing but time. Perhaps I did not have a clear answer and needed to develop a concrete response; or, maybe I just forgot. Regardless, another comment, just a few days ago - three years later, has brought your comment to my attention once again.

Let me add, that in the process of learning how to deal with my thoughts on “paper” and then subject myself to potential criticism, was quite challenging. I can tell you that I did not handle criticism well back then; I am not sure I manage it well now, but I certainly deal with it differently now. Having read another bloggers advice I have responded, deleted and blocked several caustic and religious “Christians.” However, I did not do that with yours as you were not hostile. I also felt that people who are reading my blog needed to see what the other questions are.

Your question/and interpretative challenges you put forth are not new to my world. Recently, as I sat among the men in Monday mornings "Bible study" the leader, unprovoked by me, proffered this very assumption, and he did so as though it was doctrine. As I have done with you I challenged his premise from the Word of God; however, he disregarded it. Considering how we are to make the Word of God the final authority on questions and challenges, our morning teacher chose to ignore what the word of God had to say and added, then I am stating my opinion, and that is all that matters. While opinions can often be important and valid, they are not all that matters, especially when you are alone with that idea. Fortunately, all these interpretative challenges will become clear someday as they are tested with fire before the Bema seat of Christ.

For now, let me offer a response.

You said, “Are we not told in Revelation, that when Jesus returns and throws the anti-Christ and false prophet into the lake of fire that He kills “the rest” with the sword from His mouth?”

While you are correct, it does say that, but the hypothesis is misleading because you ignored the context, which we find in Revelation 19:19.

Allow me to explain.

Revelation 19:15-19 NASB 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16) And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." 17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18) so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." 19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

What do we see here?

• Jesus, with a sword in his mouth.
  With that sword He will strike down the nations, AND, He will rule them with a rod of iron.
  Why would there be a need to rule them if it is only believers that go into the Millennial kingdom? Remember, we believers were changed in the twinkling of an eye.
  Yes, I noted your comment that apparently only believers enter the Millennial reign.
  I have covered this in more detail toward the end.
• An angel invites the birds to come and eat the flesh of kings, commanders, and so on, at the great supper of God.
• And finally verse 19, the most telling of all as it says, “And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.”
  So, who is fighting against Jesus at this point in time?
  Is it all the nations, with all their citizenry? NO, it is the beast; the kings of the earth, and their armies. Why do I know this, because the context tells us precisely who is involved and therefore killed.

For the sake of context let's go ahead and use Revelation 19:20,21 as well.

Revelation 19:20, 21 NASB And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Based on what we see in Revelation19:19, we know that there is a large army amassed against Jesus and the saints with Him. It is evident from Revelation 19:20 that only two persons are thrown into the lake of fire at this point; the beast (known to us as the Antichrist,) and the false prophet who deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. And, they are thrown alive into the lake. Therefore the remainder: kings; commanders, and the army are those that are killed; no one else.

Assuming that we could not perceive the context, could we then build an argument on logical thought and patterns?

When you look at Revelation 19:21 NASB, it unquestionably states that the rest were killed, and that sounds compelling doesn't it? And yet, the word rest/loipoi means remaining ones: - other, which remain, remnant, residue, rest.

The word rest, when we look at the Greek definition, is not so definitive because it allows for others remaining, which can easily include those from Israel if I don't follow the context. But there is a context, and it specifically points to those armies collected to fight against Jesus Christ.

Some of that "logical" evidence and pattern shows up in Zechariah's prophetic word, as God has gathered the nations against Jerusalem for punishment.

Zechariah tells us that at least one-third of Israel makes it through the onslaught. I, however, cannot comfortably say that these Jews are those that have gone into hiding, and the reason for that is verse nine as you can see by this statement, “I will bring the third through the fire, Refine them as silver.., and test them..” This refining is not an example, in my mind of people in hiding. Now if I compared the plight of these Jews with someone like Corie Ten Boom, a woman who helped many people avoid the wrath of the Nazis, many, not knowing the whole story, might think that she escaped and did not have to go through the “fire.” But, we are aware from her testimony that she was caught, tortured in the prison camp, and lost family members to the Nazis.

Zechariah 13:8-9 NASB "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. 9) "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Isaiah 66 tells us of what appears to be the same scene, and yet, it is not all but many.

Isaiah 66:15-16 NASB For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16) For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.

Still trying to define who “the rest” would be, there is this:

Zechariah 14:1-4 NASB Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2) For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3) Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4) In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Since we know that this is an important and defining battle will every person including women and children come and join in the fight?

The obvious answer is NO. We already see examples of this when we look at the Islamic world. Children are taught from the age of understanding, to hate and kill the Jew and anyone who is not a Muslim. The news used to show us young boys about age seven learning to shoot AK 47s', but it is not practical to place children on the front lines of battle. So, while there will be those with a violent hatred against anything that represents a god other than say, Allah; not all will come to battle and therefore not be included as a combatant, and not killed.

There is no struggle to understand this, and, I don't have to go looking for other scriptures to prove my point any further because I stayed true to the context.

Consider, if you haven't already, that death is separation from God, and is much more than the cessation of breathing, as the spirit ever lives on.

Before I move on to another aspect of your note to me I have to address this statement more fully,
You added a defining factor when you continued with: “That is, everyone who took the mark of the beast.”

You said this in conjunction with this statement: “Are we not told in Revelation, that when Jesus returns and throws the anti-Christ and false prophet into the lake of fire that He kills “the rest” with the sword from His mouth?“ This implies that only those with the mark are destined for separation from God, and it also implies that those receiving the mark desired to be in compliance with the beast, but that is not the case as most are merely trying to save a life, their own.

The passages from Revelation 19 that initiated this response, tell us in verse 20 that they were deceived. There is no reason to believe that the deceived are doing anything but weeping at the realization of their fate. You can see from the same verses you referenced that no one else is thrown into the lake of fire at this time, and, there is no denying that at some point those who received the mark and worshiped the image of the beast, are judged, but that is not done here in Revelation 19:21.

What if this is not a government, like the USA, and most people in America assume, that is imposing this mark upon people?

(By the way, taking the mark does not condemn you to hell's flames; it must include the worshiping of the beast and the image of the beast.)

Islam does a modified version of this marking already, as they victimize conquered peoples.

They call it a Jizya tax, and you are made to wear an identifying band around your arm or head. Without paying this tax you cannot buy or sell under their regime, and it is intentionally made impossible. Allegedly, there is a way around this tax, and that is to convert to Islam. To do so, you must deny Christ, His deity, and proclaim that there is no god but Allah and that Mohammad is his messenger. Often they, at this point, treat you as an unworthy coward and kill you anyway.

So, let me ask you a question.

Do Muslims have to take this mark? In most cases, as with women, they are mandated to wear a burka out of compliance, but all of us can see that this is not standardized.

Therefore, I can safely assume that it is only those outside of Islam that must comply like this.

Perhaps I am being far too presumptuous in attributing this designation to Islam, but what other groups, outside of governments, have the capability and desire to globally mark a specific group of people?

I offer you the passage that shows that this taking the mark we speak of is a three-part equation.

Revelation 14:9-11 NASB 9) Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10) he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11) "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Even as I read Revelation 14:9-11 I can see that there is a point at which those who “ worship the beast and his image and receive a mark on his forehead or on his hand,” will drink the wine of God's wrath, and they will be tormented with fire. I think it is safe to presume that this is the lake of fire seeing as it matches the description we have of the lake of fire and its purpose.

You added,

“It would thus seem that the 1000 years is began with only believers.”

Since I already know that many Jews survive the wrath of God, can I also assume that they too are believers?

There several problems with the idea that the thousand years is begun with only believers and that Jews would be deemed Christians as they enter.

1. 1. I have to assume from the statement that the Jews are included as believers/Christians.
      However, we are never told that there are Christians, living among the nations, that go into eternity.
      What we do understand is that there are those who warm seats in church buildings that will not go up when Jesus comes for His church. Since John saw the beheaded around the throne in heaven twice, we understand from what he related that their number was uncountable. These people are given the title of saint. The saints only get that title as they are martyred for their testimony, but their numbers are not included among those going into the Millennial reign.
      A defining statement about the saints is made in Revelation 20:4,5, where the martyred saints are brought back to life; this is labeled the first resurrection.
      The Jews, on the other hand, will not accept the title of Christian as that is a Gentile creation. What they do accept is Yeshua as the Messiah and they would never, with a free choice, agree to be called a Christian. Should they choose not to receive Yeshua then I suppose they would be intermingled with the nations. However, since God lifts the veil from their eyes and all peoples, we can safely assume that most remaining Jews would come to accept the true Messiah.
   2. Another problem arises as you have these “believers” going into the Millennium and then living the despicable lives we see in Revelation 22:15.
      How is that possible that God would allow these fractured believers into the city where no despicable person can enter; only to later go out and do what Satan did - use his free will and choice to act in opposition to God? The logic doesn't work unless it is the nations going into the Millennial reign along with their vile hatred for God, then Revelation 22:15 makes sense.
   3. The other problem, and it is common in the Western/Gentile church. We ignore or do not realize that there are only three people groups, at any given time, in the world. They are The Jews; the nations, and, the Church.
      Yes, some Jews can be considered among the Church, and time will prove that out, as they too will be caught up with the Church when Jesus comes in the clouds. Sadly, the Jews, right now, lean more toward the side of the nations as they too will be the targets for God's wrath alongside the nations.
      The nations and the Gentiles are effectively the same things in God's eyes. In the Western, “civilized” church, we see ourselves as set apart. However, the only thing that sets us apart is our acceptance of this adoption status we have been given. Simply because the “world” does not accept this adoption status, we presume that forgiveness does not and cannot cover their sins as well, but that is not true. The only thing anyone will be judged for is, what that person did with Jesus. That's all.
      At some point, multitudes of these people (the nations) will come into relationship with God. This is all laid out in scriptures by prophets, like Ezekiel. The key here then is the leaves of the trees of life, for the healing of the nations. Healing is the Greek word therapeía; attendance (specifically medical, that is, cure); figuratively and collectively domestics: - healing,

Since we, the church, with our brokenness; twisted ideas; legalism; and prejudices, are not allowed to bring this junk/sin into eternity with God, then, we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and so will those who partake of the leaves that give eternal life.

Consider the process here. The nations, in general, do not have access to the trees of life as that would give them immortality without change. But the entire purpose here is to bring these people on the outside into relationship. However, God is not going to allow them to bring their garbage with them as they come into a relationship with Him during the Millennial reign.

There is coming a day when Jesus will return in the clouds to gather His bride back to himself. As you know we call that the rapture, therefore the “believers” should effectively be gone. You should also realize that not everyone that warms a pew will be caught up to be with the Lord. I know this because the Word tells us that he comes for those who are waiting for Him.

1. 4. I am assuming that you when you say believers are then referring to those who continue to come and accept Jesus as their hope and salvation during the time of wrath. Calling them believers might make sense but is inappropriate as Scripture never refers to them as believers; it does, however, call them saints.

This idea of saints can and does cause some confusion as it seems the church is also referred to as saints. However, the word is only used in the Revelation and is always used about those martyred for their testimony. After the rapture, grace is gone. What those who come to Jesus have to live with is something comparable to living under the law as Israel did in the wilderness.

Revelation 12:11 NASB "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

It seems like you asked many questions, however, as I looked at your note you have been making statements; statements that do not align with the Word of God, and I felt they needed to be addressed.

The final thing I want to address is what seems to be your question.

“I am curious as to where you get the idea that mere compliance, or not getting the mark, will be enough to enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ.”

In response to this question how about, we start with Matthew 25:31-46. This is effectively the same story as Revelation 20 where we see the Great White Throne. The players are all the same but they have different names. The Judge is the same but Matthew conveys him as a gentle shepherd in contrast with the angry God of Revelation. Matthew's gospel focuses on the outcome of the sheep, while Revelation 20 speaks to those not found in the books.

Matthew 25:31-46 NASB "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37) "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40) "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41) "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44) "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45) "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46) "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In verse 34 he tells the crowd entitled the sheep "to come inherit the kingdom prepared for you." They obtain this mercy because they acted like the nature and character of Jesus/God. The judge, which is only Jesus, explains:

'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

If you have read this, did you ever notice how shocked they were?

When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40) "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

If these had been deemed as such before the rapture, making them “believers', then why didn't they go up with the church?

Another thing that gives me the freedom to talk about non-compliance as an entrance into the kingdom is the process of martyrdom itself. What are the things that define them as God's possession?

Revelation 6:9 NASB When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

The mere fact that these are found underneath the altar is indicative of God claiming them as His own.

Revelation 12:11 NASB "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Twice now we have seen the term testimony, but what does mean and what does that look like under extreme pressure?

The word testimony is the Greek word marturía meaning to witness. A witness, certification (Joh_1:7), testimony (Mar_14:55-56, Mar_14:59; Luk_22:71), that which someone witnesses or states concerning a person or thing (Act_22:18; 1Ti_3:7; Tit_1:13).

Paul, while still known as Saul, is told by God to go to Damascus where a devout man, a Jew named Ananias, was sent to Saul. After Ananias prayed for Saul, he received his sight. Shortly after this Saul has a dream/vision. In that vision he is told:

Acts 22:18 NASB and I saw Him saying to me, 'Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly because they will not accept your testimony about Me.'

What are the ramifications of this? Saul, in talking about the Messiah Jesus would be subject to death for several reasons: The Jew's had been taught to reject Yeshua. Some proof of this happened when Herod is told the Magi are coming. Their numbers were large enough to cause some alarm, and so he demands that the Jewish leadership tell him what is going on. They said that the scripture called for the king of the Jews to be born in Bethlehem. While this information got Herod's attention, the Jews made no effort at all to visit this king of Jews born in a manger. Herod, on the other hand, had all the boys in that region, two and below, killed.

Saul had other problems as well, as he had essentially been a hit man for the Jewish council. Now, this should not have scared the Jews who held to tradition, but converts could have to run for their lives. This Saul was now making converts himself, another reason to kill him.

So what does this idea of testimony look like, especially to a Coptic Christian living in the Middle East?

Let's assume you are a Christian living in the once quiet little Syrian town of Aleppo. Perhaps our first question is, what is it about these people that tell others they are “Christians”?

Imagine ISIS overruns your quiet little burgh, and you cannot escape. They take you captive, and, after having some fun with you by torturing and raping your wife and children and then dismembering them slowly, they demand that you convert and give allegiance to Allah. After a morning of such wasteful frivolities, they have had enough and needed to move on. A sword is placed to your neck with the command, comply – worship Allah or die. You reply with a simple no. Seconds later your bruised and battered head rolls away from your body.

What just happened?

Did you, by your non-compliance, affirm that there is a God greater than an invented name called Allah? Or, did you, by denying the one accept the other? Is it possible that God is not the least bit interested in our church-related methods of mandated compliance, and does not care if your name is on a list of those who publicly made motions of acceptance in some religious service?

I have an ex-son-in-law who did all that, and yet lives a life of lies and deceit. I am not his judge, and I do not know his heart, but I can tell you that when his fruit falls off the tree, it is already rotten and immediately begins to stink up the yard and the lives of those with which he interacts.

What this tells me, is that God is looking at the heart and the motives, and that, which only He sees, is what matters. I decided long ago, after spending a tortured lifetime in the organized church, that if I must err then let it be on the side of mercy. Funny how that works, for I hear Him constantly telling me, good job and well done because you acted just like I would have.