Will the old and new Jerusalem exist at the same time? And, If so, where?

One of the questions that came up recently; an offshoot of Dake's commentary on the Millennium, was, "Will the old and new Jerusalem exist at the same time? And, If so, where?"

The short answer is No; the where is in proximity to where the old Jerusalem is currently. (Keep in mind the overall dimensions, which are 1500 miles square; significantly surpassing the current day Jerusalem.)

Because the simple answer is rarely enough and leaves so many questions unanswered, let's try an in depth response.

To answer the first part of the question let's start with old Jerusalem.

• At some point, the last temple, constructed by man, must be built.

This cannot be called the last Jerusalem because it is not. The new Jerusalem, not made with hands will come down, but there is a rather accurate timing for that – sometime after the time of wrath, we love to refer to as the “The Tribulation.”

Has that happened yet? The short answer is no.

The discussions about where to put the new temple range from the temple mount to the city of David, a short distance away. Oh, make no mistake about it, the temple will be built. All the plans are in place, and the preparations have been made. But, there is a huge problem. If the Jews decide that it must be built on the temple mount, the Muslims have their Mosque there and have claimed possession. What does that mean? It means that God is going to have to do something drastic.

Ezekiel 39 shows us an extreme possibility.

Ezekiel 39:1-6 NASB "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal; 2) and I will turn you around, drive you on, take you up from the remotest parts of the north and bring you against the mountains of Israel. 3) "I will strike your bow from your left hand and dash down your arrows from your right hand. 4) "You will fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field. 5) "You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken," declares the Lord GOD. 6) "And I will send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands in safety, and they will know that I am the LORD.

Let's assume that Gog is Vladimir Putin of Russia (There are enough commentary and evidence to motivate some logical thought in that direction.) God, it seems, will turn Gog around, and drive him, and his forces, against the mountains of Israel. As you can see in verse 3, God will strike the bow from his hand and “you will fall on the mountains of Israel, along with all your troops.”

How might that happen, seeing as Israel is outgunned?

The answer is found in verse 6, where it says, “I will send fire upon Magog ..”

The Hebrew word for send is to shoot out, but a fire is a fire. How many many ways has God sent fire upon the earth? Several when you think about it. Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind. Archaeologists have found burnt, encapsulated sulfur.

 The photos and information below come from http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

“Above at left is brimstone with a burned, hardened shell that has the unburned sulfur inside, and next to it is brimstone without a burned shell. The photo at right is a shell or capsule with unburned sulfur inside. Tiny crystals are on its surface which was formed when the sulfur was burning and was in a liquid state, then it burned out.”

During the days of Samuel, God sent lightning upon the Philistines. Considering the heat, voltage and God's ability to direct a lightning strike, this would be deadly. So, the first thing we should be looking for is some change that allows for the temple to be built.

Back to the original question: “Will the old and new Jerusalem exist at the same time? If so, where?

The obvious point to make here is that during the time of this modern day temple's existence, Jerusalem will exist. However, the destruction of Jerusalem is spelled out plainly in scripture.

Daniel 9:26 NASB "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

One of the men from Bible study pointed out how he had read the Bible and found that instances of destruction were specifically for the moment and the nation in question. He told how this makes understanding the Bible and particularly prophecy very confusing for him.

The book/prophecy of Daniel is one of those instances where the destruction is both eminent and yet for the future. In this case, Israel was destroyed, and yet, it also speaks of time yet to come.

I thought, much like the man at Bible study, how do you know the difference?

Again, the short answer is:

You must look at the context; see if there are other, more modern applications, and, in the case of Daniel, there are. You need to look at an interlinear concordance and find out if there are multiple applications of a particular word; in so doing you may find that the translation you enjoy does a frail job of painting an appropriate picture. I would consider looking at a variety of translations, simply because one while being a step down intellectually, may convey the heart of God more clearly. (Keep in mind that the Apostle John told us God is love and that there is no darkness in Him. In short, His nature is mercy and Jesus lived that out in front of many.)

The The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury tells us that the words “Then after, or, And after” indicate:

“that two events are stated to take place after the sixty-nine weeks have concluded: (1) the death of Messiah; (2) the destruction of Jerusalem. These cannot be understood to take place during the Seventieth Week, for the Crucifixion would cut the time too short, and the destruction of Jerusalem would stretch the time too long to be accommodated within the seven-year time frame of the Seventieth Week were it to be considered contiguous with the Sixty-ninth Week. This absolutely proves, therefore, that there is a gap of unannounced duration between the Sixty-ninth and the Seventieth Week specifically stated right here in Scripture. Further proof is that Jesus himself placed events of Daniel’s Seventieth Week to a time just prior to his Second Advent (Mat_24:5; Mat_24:15; Luk_2:10; Joh_5:39; Rom_1:4.”)

Unfortunately, few would know this.

What else do we have from scripture that foretells the destruction of Jerusalem?

Ezekiel 32:12 (Darby) By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall: the terrible of the nations are they all: and they shall spoil the pride of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.

A point of possible confusion would be the aspect where it says, “they shall spoil the pride of Egypt,” What then, would be the pride of Egypt? The answer to the question lies in Joseph, the son of Jacob, the Father of the nation of Israel. In Egypt, Israel became a mighty nation, in terms of numbers.

A clear example comes from Daniel 11.

Daniel 11:16 CEV The king who invaded from the north will do as he pleases, and he will even capture and destroy the holy land.

Daniel 9:2 also speaks of the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:2 NASB in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

This is another of those passages that require that you do your homework; for we have only accomplished 69 weeks. The emergence of the seventieth week has been on hold for over two thousand years. I can prove this out, but it is time consuming and lengthy, so I won't, but I will give you a clue. Daniel, in chapter 9, verse 24 began to receive the explanation of all this.

Take the time to look at these verses, as they too reflect the destruction of Israel. This has everything to do Israel's rebellion against the Lord.

Jeremiah 11:11 NASB Therefore thus says the LORD, "Behold I am bringing disaster on them which they will not be able to escape; though they will cry to Me, yet I will not listen to them.

Jeremiah 50:29 NASB "Summon many against Babylon, All those who bend the bow: Encamp against her on every side, Let there be no escape. Repay her according to her work; According to all that she has done, so do to her; For she has become arrogant against the LORD, Against the Holy One of Israel.

Ezekiel 6:3-10 NASB and say, 'Mountains of Israel, listen to the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the ravines and the valleys: "Behold, I Myself am going to bring a sword on you, and I will destroy your high places. 4) "So your altars will become desolate and your incense altars will be smashed; and I will make your slain fall in front of your idols. 5) "I will also lay the dead bodies of the sons of Israel in front of their idols; and I will scatter your bones around your altars. 6) "In all your dwellings, cities will become waste and the high places will be desolate, that your altars may become waste and desolate, your idols may be broken and brought to an end, your incense altars may be cut down, and your works may be blotted out. 7) "The slain will fall among you, and you will know that I am the LORD. 8) "However, I will leave a remnant, for you will have those who escaped the sword among the nations when you are scattered among the countries. 9) "Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations. 10) "Then they will know that I am the LORD; I have not said in vain that I would inflict this disaster on them."'

We can be fairly confident that Israel will succumb to oppressors. But, God will leave a remnant bring down a New Jerusalem, not built with hands. Considering the size of the new Jerusalem – 1500 square miles, it is hard to imagine where something of this size would go, as there not enough level land on which to place such a structure. Well, there are passages that answer how that will happen.

Isaiah 40:4-5 NASB "Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low; And let the rough ground become a plain, And the rugged terrain a broad valley; 5) Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Zechariah 4:7 NASB 'What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"

While many will argue the context of the previous verses, the context of the next is beyond debate as it speaks about the time when Jesus touches his feet upon the mount of Olives once again. Then the new city comes down, upon level ground.

Zechariah 14:10 NASB All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.

This entire scenario is not typically one that draws, as scripture says, all men unto Christ. It is more educational, or perhaps even correctional. Most of these topics come out of conversations, most of which are where some leader; a self-appointed group pastor, makes incorrect and false statements. They attempt to back up their claims by taking scripture out of context and mixing timings and scenarios to create an environment that you won't find in scripture. In an ideal environment, this could easily be conveyed to many at one time, or directly to the individual who is espousing improper teachings.

Scripturally, the appropriate way of dealing with “abusers” within the church, is to first go to the person. I sit with these men two days a week. I have challenged their teachings to the point that I stormed out of the room and stayed away for six months. Nothing changed. At one venue, which still meets at a large church, I asked the pastor to come sit in on the meetings, because they are seriously out of control. If the next and appropriate step is to bring in the elders of the church to address the problem child; in this case, I do not see the elders having an interest in knowing there is a problem or fixing it.

So, that is why I write, because I think there are others who believe inappropriate teachings or are seriously confused. My hope is that we, as a church body, can come into an agreement; not with me, although that would be nice, however, it is vital that we agree with the Word of God; the Holy Spirit.

The Bema seat of Christ; what is it? - 2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ

We hear this phrase constantly in religious circles. It is an aspect of our mean-spirited nature, and is often used to obtain compliance or to get us, the body, to do more, especially when it comes to “soul winning.” You know what? God can win souls just fine without us. In many cases He invades the dreams of those He is trying to persuade, and from what I have seen, it works quite well. If you are interested here is a link to Amazon.com and Tom Doyle's book about such things.

Dreams and Visions, by Tom Doyle

The passage that gives us this reality check about judgment upon followers of Christ is:

2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB 10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

As usual, we need to break this down.

• “For we all must appear...”

The consensus, as I perceive it, at least from the leaders who feel we need to be reminded of how bad we are, implies that lacking enough merit, we are going to hell.

This heavy handed attitude instantly conveys some huge assumptions.

1. A major assumption is that there is some separate judgment, in which you stand fearfully before a throne, where Jesus/God looms ominously over you.
2. This angry portrayal also assumes that this judgment is a win or lose situation where you can be rejected from heaven because you did not witness enough, or act like some great evangelist.
3. We also convey the idea that God is mad at you and awaiting an opportunity to come crashing down on you, a person that He calls beloved.

Do any of these make sense? The answer is NO; however, we do not base our theology on whether things make sense to us personally or not.

Don't get me wrong, the Word of God was meant to be understood. Since we are deeply entrenched in selfishness anything or anyone telling us we are wrong tends not to make sense, because we, at that moment, are choosing not to understand. It is a choice, or we are blinded by the veil Satan puts over us, preventing us from seeing the truth.

The idea that we must appear, as it stands, sounds more like a warrant for our arrest; an order that comes with a detrimental result. If you look at the word judgment in Greek, you find a much less threatening situation. One source, The Complete Word Study Dictionary tells us that it is: necessary, has need of, or is inevitable in the nature of things.

So if I reread this with Greek eyes, 1Cor 5:10 could just as easily say:

It is necessary, and, inevitable in the nature of things that we stand before Christ.

• "..before the judgment seat of Christ.”

Moffatt's translation puts it this way: “for we have all to appear without disguise before the tribunal of Christ, each to be requited for what he has done with his body, well or ill.

What does it mean to be requited?

Webster's dictionary gives us: REQUI'TED, Repaid; recompensed; rewarded.

Does this sound like you are being judged? Not hardly, but as we shall see, you can't take that sin-ridden body into the new kingdom. So, we apparently leave our bodies at the door (so to speak.)

• If I merely focus on the word judgment for a moment, I think we would all agree that it sounds ominous, but, as we have seen, it is a time of rewarding and repayment. The Greek word is bḗma and means “A step, i.e., a pace or footstep. By implication any elevated place to which the ascent is by steps.” (WSD)

We have another huge piece of information that can help us understand what and when this judgment/Bema seat is:

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 NASB 50) Now I say this, brethren, that flesh, and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Consider what this says:

• First - ”Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;”

As we sit here reading this, we are flesh and blood. It is evident that we cannot take these bodies, as they are, into heaven.

Considering that we cannot take these bodies, with their built-in propensity to sin, why even have this conversation? We should understand by now, that Adam's treasonous choice caused us all to inherit something comparable to a damaged DNA string. In other words, you are not going to shake the effects this has on you. You can, however, overcome the influences of the sinful nature through the blood of Jesus Christ when you accept His life as yours.

• Secondly - "nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

An obvious observation, but the opposite of perishable is imperishable, and vice-a-versa. What does that mean? Slightly more than merely being subject to physical death. We, without the promise of life with the Father, are subject to an eternal perishing; a death we were not meant to endure. Hell, the fire that burns eternally was intended for Satan and his angels/followers.

• Third - “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,”
  A mystery? Is death a mystery? Not really, for everyone dies and we all know that. Some may try to evade its effects through cryogenics, but that has not worked as yet. Since the obvious factor is that everyone will die, except for those who are alive when Christ returns; then there has to be another implication; that this change will happen before our transference into heaven.

So where is the mystery? Perhaps it lies in the idea that the definition of death has changed to sleep, and that without “sleeping” we will migrate into the kingdom of God.

• Fourth - “ in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;”

Currently, the Greek word we use to create the idea of the rapture is harpazo. It means a snatching away. Rapture, on the other hand, has no associated word in the Greek. We get our word rapture from the Latin Vulgate which uses the word rapio. Rapture also conveys the idea of a mass removal of Christ followers from the earth.

When is the last trumpet?

Obviously, there are several. Matthew 24 tells us of one:

Matthew 24:29-31 NASB "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31) "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I can quickly determine that this is not the last trumpet call because of the phrase, “..immediately after the tribulation of those days..” That statement places this event approximately seven years after the rapture of the church. While it may be the last trumpet, it is not the trumpet blast being referred to.

There is one other clue to solving any mystery we find here, and that is the fact that the angels from God will gather His elect. These are Jews being spoken of here. Don't make the foolish assumption that everything the Apostle Paul said and did was directed at Gentiles, as the intentional preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles did not become a push until he made the plea to take his case to Caesar, in Rome.

What do I take away from all this?

That the bema seat of Christ:

• Maybe a seat of high position, that carries authority.
• The nature of this place and time is to reward not punish.
• It has much to do with leaving our broken natures behind.
• It will happen in that twinkling of an eye.
• And, as 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 tells us, we are not taken our broken, selfishness into heaven with us. God will not allow that in there.

So, all of it gets burned up, attitudes, beliefs, traditions, and brokenness, in a moment. If you notice anything it will be the freedom and normalcy. Something we have never experienced.

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Discernment and a piece of wisdom.


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Discernment

When the Wednesday morning group began to gather, at least one was still riled about the absurd application and misuse of the word paradise. Since I had done my homework, I was able to make some reassuring comments about paradise, as the Bible explains it, and quell the wrath this brother-in-Christ seemed to feel toward the man that made the statements - as though they were a standard church teaching.

Here is a piece of wisdom for you.

If you cannot do something about it, then it is either time to move along or let it go. No one is asking you to change what you believe to be right, but there is certainly no sense in giving yourself an ulcer over the issue. Aside from that, you will eventually drive everyone away from you.

As the others gathered that morning, it was obvious they wanted to move on. The self-appointed leader indicated that one of our group had some thoughts on the subject of discernment. Since among the religious discernment means dealing with the demonic, we tend to make problems much larger than they are and overlook common sense and logic. The man who did the talking that morning apparently has a fair grasp of Biblical language; either that or he capable of retaining information, unlike myself who tends to forget everything. Unfortunately, his delivery was dull, for he began a long oration on the variations of the Greek word diakrino.

As often happens with me, one word sends my mind in pursuit of an answer. Within moments the speaker lost me. I feel that we, as a church body, need to have a commonsense perception of what discernment means to us.

Discern- Gk word - diakrino¯ (G1252) and means to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.

The Complete Jewish Bible uses the word discernment, while many others like the ESV use the word understanding. Since discernment/diakrino means to separate thoroughly, then, the other translations are equivalent terms as understanding is an act of separating facts or aspects of a matter.

In 1Chronicles 22, we see King David gathering the materials to build the temple. God, however, had different plans and told David that because he had shed too much blood that the job would now go to Solomon. King David passes this along duty along to Solomon with a blessing and admonition.

1Chronicles 22:12 And may GOD also give you discernment and understanding when he puts you in charge of Israel so that you will rule in reverent obedience under God's Revelation.

So, what aspects of discernment did Solomon, the general contractor, need to build the temple? Almost every aspect of the definition comes into play here.

When trying to understand the Bible, and lacking resources, so much depends on translation. The KJV uses the word wisdom. This usage of the word wisdom sounds very much like the answer Solomon gave when asked what he wished above all else. Here the Greek word is śêkel, and means intelligence; by implication success: - discretion, knowledge, policy, prudence, sense, understanding, wisdom. Are the words understanding and wisdom comparable? Yes, if I consider decision making and a proper response an act of wisdom.

We have an example of discernment in the form of wisdom and understanding in the life of Daniel.

Ponder all the things Daniel had to consider. Taken into Babylonian captivity, and castrated as a young man of marrying age, the hope and dream of being a husband and father went out the window. As a prisoner, any attempt at escape would mean certain death. Over the course of time, Daniel becomes the head of the Wise men - the Magi. So Daniel uses and demonstrates discernment, understanding, and wisdom on a practical basis, throughout his life in Babylon.

Daniel 2:21 He changes the seasons and guides history, He raises up kings and also brings them down, he provides both intelligence and discernment,

Matthew 16:3 counsels about the practical side of discernment.

Matthew 16:3 KJV And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Since judging the weather does not require great wisdom, then the application of discernment leans toward making a decision about a situation or circumstances. Some of those decisions can be as simple as deciding what to wear, while others can be life changing.

The word discernment is really not that ominous, but we tend to make it that way as we apply the word to things we deem intensely dark and foreboding, such as demonic oppression or possession. The majority of translations use the term diakrino in relation to making sound judgments.

1 Corinthians 6:5 MKJV For I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise one among you, not even one in your midst who shall be able to judge between his brother?

The NASB uses the term decide, while the ESV translates diakrino as wise enough for a situation that is described as a “matter of life.” So, in a life matter where believers within a church body are struggling with each, we are supposed “to separate thoroughly, decide and judge.”

Because we seem to have no sensibility when it comes to prophesy within the church, we have an instruction that challenges the prophets to judge or weigh what is being said, and we see this in 1Corinthians 14:29.

1 Corinthians 14:29 ESV Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

While the commentary picked a translation that used the word contending the NASB translated diakrino as disputed. Jude gives us the only example of contending with the spirit world, specifically the devil.

Jude 1:9 “But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses,..”

Is Michael the archangel using discernment to back off the devil? Not hardly. Fortunately for us, the word diakrino also means to oppose. Michael very definitely opposed the devil, and won! So, even though we love to used the word discernment when trying to assess the demonic, that is not the primary application. If it were not for Michael, the archangel, as our example, we would have little else, except for the wisdom we gain looking at the actions of Jesus, Peter, and Paul. I say that because they all contended with the demonic rather successfully.

One last example.

Another word that can be used to define diakrino is doubt. We find this in Mark 11:23, and it applies to faith.

Mark 11:23 ESV Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.

Do we as believers deal with the demonic? Most assuredly. Most of us never even know it; maybe that is because we don't use discernment and accurately assess the situation.

Even if you did, would you know what to do?

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