Where do we go when we die?

Several weeks ago the Monday morning men's Bible Study opened with:

Where do we go when we die?

The answers were varied and skewed. Some even claimed we go to paradise; yes, the same place that we find beggar Lazarus after he died and he was comforted in Abraham's bosom. The presumption is that we merely wait for Jesus to call us up into heaven at some later point.

Someone decided that they had to make a distinction and apply this bizarre conversation to primarily the righteous dead. Well, that should make some form of sense seeing as we assign varying levels of righteousness to ourselves. Those who have been “in the way” understandably should have a more righteous status. This, of course, is nonsense as there is none righteous. We find this in:

Romans 3:9-12 MKJV What then? Do we excel? No, in no way; for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks all with being under sin, (10) as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; (11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." (12) "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."

The short explanation for this verse, we are all on the same playing field as far as God is concerned. Yes, I know, there are rich people all around us and they think they will have special privileges in the kingdom that is coming, but that is not the case. As a matter of fact, we are told that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So they are apparently getting theirs while here on earth. Sadly, not even the best of plastic surgeons can stop you from aging, and in some cases, looking horrible. I guess money is not the answer to everything.

Why spend time focused on this, when the question is where do we go when we die?

Because, as I pointed out, someone had to imply that only those better off would be able to take advantage of this paradise concept. Plainly, as we see in scripture, and based upon Jesus parable, where Lazarus the beggar, was comforted and not the rich man. Take the time to look this up in scripture. You will find it in, Luke 16:19-31. You will not find the word paradise here, what you will find are words and phrases like:

• “carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.”

  angels - aggelos; a prim. word; a messenger, angel:
• Mercy

  “to be compassionate (by word or deed,)
• now he is comforted

  “parakaléō; To aid, help, comfort, encourage.
• hades

  “properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls.”
• tormented in this flame

  “through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.
• you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things.

  agathós; fem. agathḗ, neut. agathón, adj. Good and benevolent, profitable, useful.

Absolutely none of these convey the idea of paradise.

Since the idea of paradise keeps coming up in Men's Bible study, what we can find to validate or disqualify the idea.

The Greek word parádeisos (paradise) only shows up three times in the Bible, and Jesus applied one of those instances by telling the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus, this day, in paradise. You can find this evidence in Luke 23:39-43.

“And one of the hanged criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If you are Christ, save Yourself and us. But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, since you are in the same condemnation. And we indeed justly so, for we receive the due reward of our deeds, but this Man has done nothing amiss. And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

The Word Study Dictionary tells us that the word has these origins and understandings: “This is an oriental word which the Greeks borrowed from the Persians, among whom it meant a garden, park, or enclosure full of all the vegetable products of the earth.”

One of the other references is in Revelation.

Revelation 2:7 NASB 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

The Paradise of God, based upon the OT concept, is the garden of God, an integral aspect of Heaven itself.

You will not find the concept of paradise in the Old Testament, unless, you use a comparison search based on "the garden of the Lord."

Lacking a “paradise” in which we can rest in peace until Christ calls for his church, where do we go?

One of the go-to verses is:

2 Corinthians 5:8 NASB we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

And yet, Paul's words are not decisive about the persuasion that, once this body dies we are present with the Lord. As you can see the NASB uses the word “prefer.” In comparing translations you get words like: pleased, as the Amplified states. The choices are split between pleased and prefer.

If we apply the mathematical concept of inverse to the statement, “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Corinthians 5:6 KJV), we should be able to expect that the opposite scenario is logically definitive; and, implies that when, those who are in Christ die (are absent from the body,) then we should be present with the Lord. Paul made it clear that this premise operates by faith and confidence.

Perhaps this entire idea is better defined by the verses I did not include, 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV.

(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

If I lived off of verse one alone I could be content and happy, this is why.

• For we know
  How do you say something like this without something close to concrete evidence? Faith is supposed to be just that. One of our examples of great faith is Abraham; whom we find in the annals of faith history (the book of Hebrews chapter 11) among others who were strong in faith. And yet, Abraham is also one of our greatest examples of a man that struggled. Regardless of his struggles, did God come through? Yes, and he always has.
  Paul would have known of Job's struggles, boils and all. We find this in:

  Job 19:25-26 NASB "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. (26) "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

  But I have to ask the same questions of Job. How did he know and have this confidence? It does not speak of transitions or times frames; and, both of these men lived in a sense of the present.
• that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
  This earthly house is, for all practical purposes, our bodies. Terminated by whatever means, whether through death and deterioration, or worse.
• we have a building of God
  Building, is a compound word that effectively means architecture, that is, (concretely) a structure.
  I can take this one of two ways: 1.) We are talking about our bodies; or, 2.) We are looking forward to a home in heaven. Do they both work? Certainly, but the words, we have a building of God, are present tense and not some future hope. This body became the temple, the building of God the day you asked Him to come into it.

There is no transition involved in what Paul is describing.

Let's keep tearing it apart for a few minutes.

2 Corinthians 5:2-3 NASB (2) For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, (3) inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• (2) For indeed in this house, we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
  Again, I am challenged as I ask, am I clothed with Christ, and therefore a temple of the Holy Ghost, or not? If I am then there must be more, isn't there?

  1 Corinthians 3:16 NASB (16) Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

  Luke 24:49 NASB "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

  “Clothed with power from on high.” The entire purpose for them waiting in the upper room was to be endued with power. Power was an aspect of the Holy Ghost. The correlation is well demonstrated with the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

If there is more, such as a dwelling from heaven, then what is that? Since we understand that we are to be clothed, then it must be something, perhaps symbolic, or spiritual. Regardless, there is more.

2 Corinthians 5:3 NASB inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

Once again, what did we, as followers of Christ and those that long for all that there is in Him, put on? The Holy Spirit, the power of God. This gives us one other promise. One that we debate consistently, our consistent, unchanging life, in Christ. Verse 3 says, having put it on, (we), will not be found naked. This is an unalterable promise. One of the other ways this is described is eternal security. Sadly, to most, this is unbelievable and just wrong.

2 Corinthians 5:4 NASB For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

• “while we are in this tent,”

  Alive, and existing in these bodies.
• “we groan, being burdened,”

  This is also found in Paul's letter to the church in Rome. Where Paul tells us that all of creation groans along with us.

Romans 8:22-23 NASB For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. (23) And not only this but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

• “because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed,”

  Unclothed? To go or come out of, what? Our skin, the thing we groan about; or, to be separated from the Holy Ghost? The only logical assumption then, would be relieved from the Holy Spirit. However, that is, according to what we see in 2Corinthians 5, impossible.
• “ so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.”

  So, currently stuck in this broken body, we await for the entire thing to be swallowed up by life. What does that mean? When we transition into the heavenlies we will not take this broken body and its desires, with us. We are told that in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 NASB (50) Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (51) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(The damage done to us through Adam's fall, seems to be genetic. Consider this; if, every human, born from Adam, carries a damaged DNA marker, then every man throughout eternity carries that same damaged DNA string. Anyone looking at DNA would then say that this damaged example, is the basis for what we deem normal.)

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A discussion about the marriage supper of the Lamb.

The morning bible study started out with a discussion about the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:7-8 NASB "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." (8) It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

The general opinion is that this wedding supper is a feast, much like what Isaiah describes, and that the church will be the guests at the supper.

Where do we get these crazy ideas?

What if I told you that I have never had clarity on this subject. Seeing as the leaders took us to Revelation 19 to attempt to sell their point, it was easy to grasp what the marriage supper of the lamb consisted of out of Revelation 19 and the perceived context. Considering that, in effect, we have two leaders (one seems to be the watchdog over the other) anything can happen, and it did.

One of the men, a man deemed knowledgeable, adamantly declared, “we have to eat, and Jesus had to eat; the fact that he ate fish on the beach with the disciples proves it.” Because he said this many seemed to groan in response, that must be true then.

Dig hard and you will not find anything in scripture that backs up the need for an eternal man to eat. Eating, it seems, is purely a pleasure at this point. As I thought about this, I was reminded of Adam and Eve in the garden. Edible things were pleasant to the eyes and “good” for food, but this does not prove my point either. Perhaps looking at this from the standpoint that man was first made a spiritual being. However, he did not remain a spiritual being only as God put flesh on him. Now thinking about Jesus, He voluntarily put on flesh, became a man and maintains that humanness still today, and, therefore, may have to eat. The problem I have then is not that we might have a need to eat, but the presumption that this is really some sort of fancy dinner when it is a bloody and horrific battle.

With eyes wide open let us continue.

Revelation 19:9 ESV And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."

Thinking as a Jew might what would be the association I could make? Isaiah 25:6 ESV “On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.” At least, we have the imagery of a dinner. However, we quickly find ourselves turning our heads away.

Look up the word supper and you get the Greek word deipnon/dipe'-non. It is from the same as G1160; dinner, that is, the chief meal (usually in the evening): - feast, supper. If I pursue the reference to the Strong's number G1160 I get this: dapane/dap-an'-ay. From dapto (to devour); expense (as consuming): - cost.

This idea of supper now carries the connotation of the bride acting savagely, for the word devour by definition means to ruin or destroy. While that may not at first make sense, it will when I consider who else is called to this supper given by the lamb.

Here is what Isaiah describes:

Isaiah 25:6 ESV On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

It is all about context.

It is not a lavish dinner where you get to sit and fulfill your selfish, glutenous desires, and the context of Revelation 19 reveals that.

Revelation 19:17 KJV And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

So, even though Isaiah 25:6 describes a lavish feast, that is not what the context suggests here. In human comprehension this is disgusting:

Revelation 19:18 KJV That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

What is clear is that this is the result of a horrendous battle.

Revelation 19:19 KJV "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

So, who is invited to this feast?

Revelation 19:9 KJV And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

“Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”

Since we already comprehend that the bride has made herself ready, you would assume the bride is one of the called. Revelation 19:7 tells us, “his Bride has made herself ready.”

Some of the guests include:

• Flesh eating birds.

Revelation 19:17 ESV Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,

• Jesus himself, of course.

Revelation 19:11 ESV Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

• The armies of heaven.

Since we have this declaration from Paul's second letter to the church in Thessalonica, we know that this army includes followers of Christ who are already in heaven with him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 ESV (13) so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

• The nations.

I try to tell people, as much as possible, that there are only three people groups in scripture: The Jews/Israel; the nations; and, the church/the body of Christ. What does that make the nations in this instance? All those not belonging to either of the other two.

Revelation 19:15 ESV From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

What is on the menu?

“The flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.”

(17)Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, (18) to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." (19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. Revelation 19:17-19 ESV

This “feast” is nowhere close to what Isaiah described and must then be taken to be symbolic.

The church is not the bride.

I challenged one of the men with this idea and he immediately went back to Revelation 19:7 to try and make his point.

Revelation 19:7 ESV “Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;”

As a stand alone sentence, this does not define who the bride is. As a matter of fact, nowhere in the New Testament will you find the church referred to as the bride. All references to the bride come out of the Revelation with one exception and that is in John's gospel where John the Baptist is speaking.

John 3:29 NASB "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.

Because John the baptist speaks in the present tense, he reveals that the coming for the bride has happened with the appearance of the Messiah. There is a problem here because the bride rejected the groom, the Messiah, and still does. (By the way - Jesus had already been baptized by John and was already actively ministering when John said this.)

All other references to the bride are found in the Revelation, and two of the most revealing are found in chapter 21.

Revelation 21:2 ESV And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

That in itself does not convince me but leads my mind to rethink this concept of a bride. What does convince me is this.

Revelation 21:9-11 ESV Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." (10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, (11) having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

Here, in Revelation 21:9-11, is the bride and without question it is the holy city Jerusalem.

Certainly Isaiah speaks of a time, at the end of wrath, when God will establish peace once again. And, though we can apply almost everything to the church as well, it is rather specific in dealing with the restoration of Israel, his people. We know this because of two declarations made within the paragraph - "Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

Isaiah 25:7-9 ESV And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. (8) He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken. (9) It will be said on that day, "Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

The bride is Israel, who still to this day awaits the Messiah.

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