Where do we go when we die? An edited repost that is always pertinent.

 Several years ago, a brother in Christ opened his home a couple of times a month, and a few of us gathered for a home church meeting. This brother-in-Christ did the teaching/preaching and, on one Saturday night, attempted to cover the question – where do we go when we die?

He had a well-drawn graphic that showed what many call the upper level of hell and the lower level. So while he had some additional terminology, essentially what we saw, according to our teacher that night, is representative of hell.

In theory, all this conjecture about multiple layers of hell is based on the “story” about the rich man and the poor beggar Lazarus that Jesus told. (I am convinced that these were real people.) As you may

remember, Lazarus the beggar was now comforted in Abraham's bosom, while the nameless rich man was now in torment, separated by a great gulf. As the evening progressed, all we saw in the graphic were interpreted as spiritual places. I had to question that concept because the rich man was in torment, and his condition sounded very physical to me.

He opened by asking the group this question, do you believe you would be in the Lord's presence when you die?

I was unclear about what he was trying to accomplish, so I asked him if he wanted a response from the group. He replied, yes. While a few others raised their hands, I was, in those few seconds, the only one with my hand up and added because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I said nothing more to clarify my statement, as almost every follower of Christ has heard this passage at some point.

“Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--for we walk by faith, not by sight--we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:5-9 NASB)

Apparently, our leader had not heard nor read this passage before; and though he said nothing as a challenge, his utterances indicated disbelief. Several minutes later, another brother-in-Christ interjected with 2 Corinthians 5:5-9, to which the leader replied, Oh, is that in the Bible?

Allow me a quick breakdown of the passage above.

Because He gave us the Spirit (think Holy Spirit), we can have solid confidence that once we are absent from this body, we are present with the Lord. Most followers of Christ feel this all the time.

What followed was a question/statement from the group leader that went like this: 

Then, is it true that the dead know nothing and merely lay in the ground until some day of judgment? 

Again I replied, yes, both statements are true, (However, the question makes no distinction between a child of God and a non-believer, and that is a problem.) The group leader was clearly undone and would not acknowledge or look at me. I know it is not all about me, but some form of recognition that you heard what I said would be nice. (In all honesty, I was mad also. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but I can't stand false teaching, and I did not come back for several weeks. When I did come back, it was like a God thing, as a dear lady that had also spoken up at the previous meeting was there. When the leader opened the meeting this night, he abruptly said we should keep our opinions to ourselves. Whoa, you asked for input, and we, both, refuted with the Word of God. This was the last time I went to this home meeting. Not to worry about this brother, though, for Pastor gave him a group teaching slot at church; and no, I do not go to this church anymore either.)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NLT  “The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered.”

Since I read this passage, I have understood that the dead lie in the ground, in some form of sleep, until they are awakened and brought before the great white for final judgment. (Note. If you are in the Lord and die, where are you? The answer lies in 2 Corinthians 5:8, where the believers are immediately present with the Lord.)

Something doesn't make sense, for there are stories of people that have died and spent time in hell, and they describe it as pure torment. If the dead lie there quietly, then how do these people get taken into hell? This gives me grief as, in my understanding, NO ONE is in hell nor goes there until the final judgment at the great white throne at the end of the thousand years.

(Just a touch of clarification. When Jesus physically comes back to earth, one of the first things He does is to grab the antichrist and the false prophet and throw them alive into the lake of fire. These two are the only ones sent to eternal punishment until after the great white throne).

Let me show you what I might use to substantiate what I understand about the dead. Most people seem to struggle because they see these from the nations and assume they are alive. Remember that death is a relative term, as all of us have eternal spirits, and we never really die.

Matthew 25:31-34 NASB "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. (32) "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; (33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. (34) "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

Alright, then, how do we understand this?

First, this is the same scenario that we see in Revelation 20.

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which was in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which was in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.”
Revelation 20:11-13 NASB

For comparison, I give you Matthew's account.

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:” Matthew 25:31 KJV 

Secondly, pay attention to the thrones.

• In Matthew, it is His glorious throne, and in Revelation 20, it is a great white throne.

  Why should we see any distinction between great and glorious?

  Great is the Greek word mégas. It is an adjective describing size, such as: Great, large, particularly of physical magnitude.

  Throne thrónos - A seat, usually high and having a footstool, a throne as the emblem of royal authority.

  Glory/glorious is the Gk word dóxa. It is a noun and means to think (about) or recognize (His) Glory.

  In both the throne of Revelation 20 and Matthew 25, the throne is to be seen as an emblem of royal authority. Matthew's account also shows Jesus coming in a manner in which those witnessing His "entrance" recognize His glory.

• In the Revelation account, we only perceive those before the throne to be dead, while Matthew's rendition presents them as alive.

  Death, it would seem, is a relative term since our spirits are eternal and we never die. Therefore, all these people may be spirits. (Since we are reattached to improved versions of our bodies, then maybe God will do the same with these “dead” so that they can fully understand the agonizing discomfort of hell if that is where they will go.)

  On the cross, Jesus cried out, my God, why have you forsaken me. We understand that He experienced a total and complete separation from the Father, and that is the ultimate death.

• In the Revelation account, we see the book of life; however, all we see is the result of those not being found in the book. In contrast, Matthew's account shows us no books in the event, yet many receive mercy. 

Revelation 20:15 NASB “And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

The assumption most make as they read about the great white throne is that no one is found worthy of salvation, and all are thrown into the lake of fire, henceforth hell. But an honest inquiry into this verse will show you that Revelation 20:12 speaks of books; the implication is that God is desperately looking through those books for those to which He can show mercy. To see this any other way is nothing less than a cruel and morbid joke on God's part, for He knew whether He would find their names in those books and is, therefore, merely having fun at the expense of those standing there. Anyone who understands God's nature knows that this scenario will never happen. 

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.” (Ephesians 1:4 NASB)

King David, a man who sinned frequently, said,

“Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.”
(Psalms 139:16 NASB)

He already knows what is written in those books.

Consider this. God so loved this world so much that even while they spit in His face, He gave His only Son, Jesus, so that through the horrors of death, He could redeem the world, and then they could love Him freely if they chose. 

In contrast to the Revelation account, Matthew tells us that He already knows the answer to what His eyes were searching for in those books and, therefore, separates the crowd into sheep and goats. He gives those He deems sheep entrance into the kingdom of peace.

The people in the sheep category seem puzzled, knowing that they did not measure up by religious standards, and ask, what did we do to deserve entrance into the kingdom of Heaven? 

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (35) 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; (36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' (37) "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? (38) 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? (39) 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' (40) "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.” Matthew 25:34-40 NASB

What did they do that gained their entrance into the kingdom?

They acted in the nature and character of God.

So back to the problems with the graphics I started with and the multi-layered hell.

While it is clear that this was understood by the Jews during Jesus' time on earth, we have nothing beyond the resurrection (primarily Paul's writings) that would enforce a multi-layered hell. 

If Paul did not preach it, why should I?

Paul wrote about the dead in Christ in an attempt to address such misconceptions.

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NASB

Paul used the word nekrós, which means a corpse, when he spoke of the dead in 1 Thessalonians. So the dead then is merely corpses' catching up with the spirit, which is already with Jesus, if you are a believer. I have thought about the whys of needing our corpses, and I suspect God could merely make another body for us if we needed it, but then, Jesus did not just leave His lying around, did He. (As a side note. The sinful nature is attached to the living body. If you think about how taking a bite out of a piece of fruit can permanently change you, then you have to be talking about genetics. We have, in the last two years, seen for ourselves, if we were paying attention, that an injection can affect our DNA. Once the DNA code is changed in one, then everything produced by that one impacts all future progeny. But it wasn't just one, and therefore, one human escaped the damage.

Well, how do you get rid of the damage?

It has to be killed, and suddenly this change (in a twinkling of an eye) that we all must go through begins to look like the death of the body. Remember,

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
(Hebrews 9:27 KJV)

And we have two known humans that, as far as we know, did not die as yet, Enoch and Elijah, but those two, standing in the streets of Jerusalem, will someday die and fulfill the requirement. This death/judgment is something only God can do, so don't try to take matters into your own hands, as that is stupid and exactly what Satan wants you to do – as it removes you from usefulness here on earth.

Now, imagine if Peter and John had returned to the tomb and found His body lying there; the entirety of the resurrection would have been undone in this scenario. And, when Jesus showed himself to the 120 in the upper room, He showed them that same physical body. It was proof of His resurrection, and it validated His previous statements.

I suspect we have more than a couple of significant players in our misconceptions about hell. 

1. Dante Alighieri and his book The Inferno.

2. The book is known to have been a method to confront what he perceived as religious: persecution, error, disagreement, and graft. Dante placed real people in various levels of his creation, each group having its own nasty punishment. Dante showed some mercy by implying that his victims could earn their way out, although none ever made it out.

3. The Catholic Church seems to have adopted the concepts within Dante's book. One of those concepts is purgatory. From what I understand, if you comply with some monetary demand, you can buy your way out. It did not happen to any of Dante's characters and has not happened here on earth.

4. The last and most damaging story is about the poor beggar Lazarus and the wealthy Jewish man. So let's pursue this for a moment.

The passage in Luke is detailed and lengthy, so I am t going to put the entire thing in here. But, suffice it to say; the rich man is still attempting to order Lazarus around, and the rich man is in torment, while Lazarus is not.

“... Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. (23) "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me,... (25) "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. (26) 'And besides all this, between us and you, there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us. ...” Luke 16:19-31 NASB

“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.”

What is the difference between the event that Jesus described and how we should perceive this today?

The resurrection.

Here, in Luke's gospel, Jesus is talking to Jews who have little to no comprehension of grace nor of the catching away of the Church. The Jews do, however, understand that the soul seems to lie in a state of waiting. In Ecclesiastes, we learn that.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Another source of Jewish understanding comes from King David.

Psalms 31:17 KJV  Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Again, the general idea is that the dead lie in silence until called.

In looking at the word paradise, which comes up in the conversation between Jesus and the thief on the cross, we see Jesus saying,

"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43b NIV

In the Jewish understanding, the word paradisos is an oriental word that the Greeks borrowed from the Persians, among whom it meant a garden, park, or enclosure full of all the vegetable products of the earth. ...The original Eastern word pardes occurs in Neh_2:8; Ecc_2:5; Son_4:13. In Sanskrit, paradésha, and paradisha meant a land elevated and cultivated. In Armenian, pardes means a garden around the house planted with grass, herbs, and trees for food and ornament. The Sept. uses it to refer to the Garden of Eden (Gen_2:8). In later Jewish usage and in the NT, parádeisos is used for the abode of the blessed after death. Paradise, before Christ's resurrection, has been thought to be the region of the blessed in Hades, although it was not specifically called by that name (Luk_16:23). [From the Word Study Dictionary]

And finally, the early church deemed paradise to be an upper level of heaven where the dead would wait.

Paradise is but an Anglicized form of the Greek word παράδεισος. It does not occur in the Old Testament, in the English version, but is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew gân, גָּן, a garden (Gen_2:8 sq.), and thence found its way into the New Testament, where it is applied figuratively to the celestial dwelling of the righteous, in allusion to the Garden of Eden (2Co_12:4; Rev_2:7). It has thus come into familiar use to denote both that garden and the heaven of the just. Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature

It does not matter how eloquently you deliver the evidence that backs your thesis or arguments against some false or skewed teaching; someone will have a comeback. The mere fact that the rich man was in torment, and there is the possibility that he could see the beggar Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, only fuels their fire. This is, again, one of those places where looking up the simplest of words, such as “saw,” where you can gain some additional understanding.

“and the rich man also died and was buried. (23) "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment,”

Torment is the Greek word basanos and also means torture. The NASB tells us that he saw Lazarus. The word saw is the Greek word horaō and means to stare at (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally.)

So, none of us can prove that the man could even see Lazarus, and therefore it would be just as easy to assume that the rich man was allowed to discern mentally that Abraham now held Lazarus peacefully and securely. If there is a point to this, it is this, refrain from preaching and teaching things you do not have an accurate understanding about unless you are willing to humble yourself and tell the people that you really don't know, that this is your opinion and that they should search the scriptures to gain a clearer picture.

We were also told by this brother-in-Christ, that led the home group, that he did not have a complete confidence in his relationship with Jesus Christ and would not until that day when we are called home. This is not what Paul and others taught. Jesus and this Word give us every confidence to know that we are loved, and wanted, and since we have accepted Jesus Christ as our sacrifice, then we can know that we, NO MATTER WHAT, have a home with Him in glory.

He established it and did not create a waste place, so what about Genesis 1:2?

 Looking at the word wrath to find out if the earth is young or old might seem ridiculous, but I will try to unravel this great mystery for us. 

The story begins in Genesis 1:1, which says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

The phrase "in the beginning" is the Hebrew word rê'shı̂yth, which means the first in place, time, order, or rank. I could read this sentence in this manner, "in beginning," God created. There is NO reference to the time spent doing this, nor does it limit God from doing more and other things.

Because we have accepted what our pastors said, without question, we do not challenge the ill-informed creation stories and do not understand or believe that the earth was perfect in its creation.

The prophet Isaiah backs up this assertion. 

"For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else. "I have not spoken in secret, In some dark land; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, 'Seek Me in a waste place'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, Declaring things that are upright." (Isaiah 45:18-19 NAS95)

The only assumption we are left with is that verse one demonstrates that the creation was done and it was good. 

So now we get to verse two and find this. 

"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." (Genesis 1:2 NAS95)

Whoa, stop right there. Something drastic happened between verses one and two, yet we deny it and ignore how or why this occurred.

Look at this phrase “the earth was formless and void.”

Formless is the Hebrew word. The Word Study Dictionary states this. tōhû: A masculine noun meaning formlessness or confusion. The exact meaning of this term is difficult at best since its study is limited to its relatively few Old Testament occurrences. It is used to describe primeval earth before the seven creative days (Gen_1:2); a land reduced to primeval chaos and formlessness (Isa_34:11; Isa_45:18; Jer_4:23).

Void is the word bōhû and, according to the “WSD,” implies “a masculine noun indicating void or emptiness. It depicts the state of matter after God had created it...”

It is evident that this earth was destroyed after God's initial creation. I will say that I think Dr. Ken Hamm is doing the Christian community a great disservice by pressing intensely for a young earth created in 24 hours segments when the origins of the Genesis account, in conjunction with Isaiah 45:18, DO NOT support a six-day creation within 144 hours. I will also say that I do not know how Dr. Hamm orates this position, but I have experienced a couple of young earth advocates, and several of them went to his creation science museum and returned as proponents of a young earth.

As I am writing this, it occurs to me that this 144-hour time frame might apply if it was merely the installation of a relatively small garden in Eden and a general clean-up of the destroyed earth. But even that seems foolish.

So there had to be another force acting upon the earth, and there was.

“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.” Rev 12:12 KJV

Do a search for the word wrath, and you will find, depending upon the translation, that there are at least eleven references in Revelation alone. Most point to God as the originator of that wrath, but one of those passages is directly attributable to Satan, and you can see that above.

Wrath seems like such a simple word and easy to understand, and that is why few bother to look it up in Greek. The Strong’s concordance tells us that it is the Gk word thumos with a primary meaning of passion (as if breathing hard): - fierceness, indignation. One of the last options is the word wrath.

Webster's dictionary defines PASSION as “the impression or effect of an external agent upon a body; that which is suffered or received. The feeling of the mind, or the sensible effect of impression; excitement, perturbation or agitation of mind; as desire, fear, hope, joy, grief, love, hatred...”

As you can see from the definition of passion, Satan was acting under the premise of receiving a wounding from God; and the agitation and hatred that brings.

“Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” (1 Peter 5:8 NASB)

To understand this verse, I need to ask, to which point in time is Peter speaking?

I ask this because Jesus told us, while He walked this earth, that He beheld Satan fall like lightning, and standing among His disciples, He wasn't talking about yesterday. He was speaking about a time much closer to creation. 

It is evident from this statement that this event where Satan fell happened long ago. Since we find Satan in the garden seducing Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, then it is safe to say Satan’s fall occurred at or before the garden creation. (This scenario with Satan’s fall has a wide variety of options and may play into the “Gap Theory” that is notable between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.) (Luke 10:18)

Alright, I went there and brought up the “Gap Theory,” so let’s pursue this for a few minutes.

Genesis, in most translations, opens in this manner, “In the beginning.” The problem is that this phrase is wrapped up in one Hebrew word – rê'shı̂yth. It means the first, in place, time, order, or rank.

The passage could easily be read “in beginning,” indicating a process and still making sense. Creating the heavens and the earth was the first thing God did; this opens the door to Him doing other things, and we haven’t made it past verse one yet.

What did God do? 

He created the heavens and the earth. 

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1 NASB)

Created - the Hebrew word used to express this creating was bārā’. "It is a verb meaning to create. God is the only subject of this verb. It is used for His creating: heaven and earth." But it is also indicative of Him creating: humanity (Gen_1:27); the heavenly host (Isa_40:26); the ends of the earth (Isa_40:28); north and south (Psa_89:12 [13]); righteousness; salvation (Isa_45:8); evil (Isa_45:7).  (Word Study Dictionary) 

Did God make any mistakes?

No, and I will prove it to you. 

“For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited, "I am the LORD, and there is none else. "I have not spoken in secret, In some dark land; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, 'Seek Me in a waste place'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, Declaring things that are upright.” (Isaiah 45:18-19 NASB)

Established is the Hebrew word kûn: According to the Word Study Dictionary, it is A verb meaning to set up, to make firm, to establish, or to prepare. The primary action of this verb is to cause to stand in an upright position, and thus the word also means fixed or steadfast.

Waste place is the Hebrew word tôhû. Used twice, it means to lie waste; a desolation (of the surface), that is, formlessness, confusion; figuratively a worthless thing; without form.

According to Isaiah 45:18-19, this is NOT what God created. “He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited.”

 And yet, what does Genesis 1:2 say? 

“The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2 NASB)

Obviously, something caused the earth to change. Some might try to tell you that this was a part of the creation process. For example, some believe that the planet and the heavens were formed from a hot spinning mass. However, based on what we see in the scriptures, especially Isaiah 45, that does not seem likely.

Formless, as used in Genesis, is the same Hebrew word we saw in Isaiah, tôhû - a worthless desolation. Void is the Hebrew word bôhû and means an undistinguishable ruin.

So, according to Isaiah 45, the earth was made in a manner appropriate for life, and the life of humanity, once that happens.

What does all that mean to you and me?

It means that something horrific happened between Genesis 1:1, where we see creation, and 1:2, where we find formless, void, and darkness. There is no reason to see this destruction as anything other than Satan being thrown to the earth. 

You should realize that there is NOTHING in scripture that defines how much time lapsed between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. If you hold to the idea that the earth, living things, and, in time, two humans were created in six, 24-hour days, then you are sadly deceived. For example, when Adam committed treason, God slaughtered an animal, specifically a lamb.

(I can tell you that because Abel knew how to make a proper sacrifice, and yet you – the reader, have NO indication that God told Abel, and Cain for that matter, how to do that. So our only logical assumption is that the clothing for Adam and Eve was made from lamb skins and that the lambs were used to teach Adam how to make a proper sacrifice, which he then had to share with the boys that were going to have to make their own sacrifices several years from this point.

And I want you to think about one more aspect of communication from God to man.

How did Eve know NOT to touch that particular tree in the garden?

We do not see God talking to Eve; we only see God speaking to Adam about the tree. Therefore, it would have been Adam's position, as the one having dominion, to have shared that information with Eve.

Now, think about Satan saying to Eve, did God really say that? Now, think about Satan disparaging Adam and creating doubt that Adam told her the truth and was merely trying to control her; and he belittled God, for God would not have imposed such restrictions upon you.  A conversation built on these premises would have allowed Satan to deceive Eve. Remember that Adam is standing just off her shoulder and could have called down the power of heaven against this foolishness, but he said nothing.)

I have been around religious zealots long enough to hear every ridiculous argument against what I just said. That lamb had to go through the birthing process, and sorry, but that takes months, not hours. Look, this Bible is a Jewish book, and in the majority, even the Jews, did NOT interpret the creation as a six-day, twenty-four-hour format; therefore, neither should you.

Secondly, if you are trying to hold to six 24-hour days for the creation, what do you do with the fact that there was no time until the fourth day? (See Genesis 1:19)

The point here is that Satan, at some point, was thrown to earth, and that act created vast and encompassing ruination; and that is quite possibly what we see when we read Revelation 12:12, where it says, “Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.” So, in his great wrath, Satan trashed the place, which had to be repaired.

Job tells us that Satan was already here, walking about the heavens among the sons of God.

“Now on a certain day, when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them. And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? (The NLT translation reads “Where have you come from?”) And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it.”
(Job 1:6-7 DRB)

Then, Satan's coming down to the earth predates the fall of humankind in the garden. I suppose this opens an entire other can-o-worms, but the point is that the planet got a makeover, or Adam walked among the earth and its animal life in a corrupted state without concerns. 

What do we have that might answer how Adam could have walked fearlessly among Dinosaurs (you cannot deny they were here)?

• Adam, the man, was given dominion over the earth and all the animal life. He was God on this earth.

• The only record of animals fearing humankind shows up after the flood. 

  "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. (Genesis 9:2 NAS95)

  Did you notice that fear is only one way, and they fear us? That tends to indicate that humans interacted with the animals. 

  Since an obvious assumption would be that the earth had all the beauty and horror one could imagine. Even Dr. Ken Hamm has animals on the ark exhibit that have long been extinct. So Adam might have needed to avoid tar pits, quicksand, and volcanic activity. And leads to another potential solution on God's part.

• The Garden.

  A garden looks different to various people, so when I traveled through the Arizona desert in America and stopped at the Petrified Forest, the displays indicated a lush tropical environment, which is a garden to me. This suggests that the entire planet was a garden. With the destruction that came, it may have been necessary for God to construct a special one for Adam.

So then, this great wrath of Satan, how is it demonstrated?

In the form of trials and tribulations, that wrath is a regular part of the believer’s life.

Jesus told us that we would have tribulation in this world, and we are certainly a part of the world. 

“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.” 
(John 16:33 NASB)

A secondary consideration is that we who are followers of Christ are in Christ and therefore look and act like He did.

“Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”
(1 Peter 5:8 NASB)

A famous passage exhibiting the wrath of the dragon (one of Satan's names) can be found in Revelation 12.

 “And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. (16) But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. (17) So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” 
(Revelation 12:15-17 NASB)

I firmly believe that the woman is Israel. This identification would be entirely acceptable because of: the time period – a period in which God is pouring out His wrath upon Israel for their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, their unbelief, and their idolatrous ways.

We should have figured out by now that Satan is on the rampage – dishing out his own version of wrath, but do we know why? 

The answer is yes. Initially, Satan is attacking the Jews, the woman's children.

This fight was initiated in the Garden shortly after the fall.

“And I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.”
(Genesis 3:15 NLT)

Hostility between Satan's offspring and the woman's. I will leave you to figure out who these outstanding citizens are. However, because God allows those receiving Christ to be grafted into the vine, the draw effected by the Holy Spirit will continue up to the “great white throne” as multitudes will sincerely acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Before the millennial reign, they, too, will become targets of Satan's followers. The statement that spells out the reason for the attack in Revelation 12:16,17.

“But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” (Revelation 12:16-17 NAS95)

The age of the earth is indeterminate, and an early church father, Origen (AD 185-254), wrote in his book, On First Principles, chapter V, that decay has been in effect in the natural world since the creation of the universe. We have also seen that death and chaos may have played a role in Adam's surroundings because of Satan's wrath; and yet Adam walked the earth fearlessly. One of the proofs of that is the statement that God made to Eve, “I will greatly multiply your pain and your travail; in pain you shalt bring forth children.” A statement like this makes NO SENSE unless she had borne children without pain.

So, with the acknowledgment that Eve had previously born children before the garden incident, it becomes easier to understand where Cain obtained his wife; why there was a “city” called Nod; and why Cain thought that others would kill him.

Understanding that the earth has been here for an indeterminate amount of time allows you to comprehend that there was a perfect creation, as attested to by God, out of the mouth of Isaiah and that something cataclysmic happened to change all of creation. It is easy to understand that Satan's expulsion from his place of prominence was the event that destroyed the creation, and Genesis 1:2 shows God putting it back together.

Now whether the earth was a perfect sphere in which a mist watered the entirety of the planet is irrelevant. I don't know about you, but I can look at the mountains covered with snow and see them as majestic. The oceans are still a fascination to me, and I love to catch fish. Deserts have their own strange beauty to them, and anywhere I can find a tree for shade quickly becomes my new favorite place. I can see God in all of them, and it matters not how long they have stood against time because any day now, my Jesus is coming back to take His bride home.

I found Him and accepted the fact that He wanted us to be His. The obstinate and foolish reject that idea. If you are NOT following Jesus, then you are following the destroyer, and you are following him to his destiny, hell. Why you would think that is attractive or intelligent is beyond me, especially when there is a home in the Father's arms where love and peace will reign forever.  

The idea of an old earth has been with me for about 17+ years now, but along this journey, I have been met with derision. 

I have never heard a good argument to dissuade or disprove my beliefs. Still, my religious opponents go after the “gap theory” because there is no clear biblical backing for a gap. Yet, those choosing to fight against that gap lean heavily upon the idea that the creation all happened within 144 hours. I have never heard an adequate explanation of why there are dinosaurs or why those dinosaurs are billions of years old. One answer thrown at me expressed that God sped up time. Ah, but only to enhance your theory while ignoring others more intelligent than you. So that did not fly.

About eight years ago, the church I was attending had asked Dr. Hugh Ross to come and speak to our men's group. Since he had just finished a seven-year study at his church on the book of Revelation, he was now available. I had become aware of Dr. Ross several years before this when a lady “friend” of mine told me that her atheist, science-teaching father had come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ by reading one of Dr. Ross's books about the creation. 

I remember tears rolling down my cheeks as the Holy Spirit affirmed in me, through Dr. Ross, things I understood from scriptures, but few else would pay any attention to. To be honest, these thoughts became fodder for Satan to bring doubts. That day, listening to Dr. Ross was monumental, and I wanted to shout because I became more convinced about what I saw in Genesis 1. Sadly, several men in attendance openly criticized Dr. Ross, not to his face but behind his back, and he was only a few feet away.

Really, are we that despicable? Apparently, the answer is yes.

Fast forward to 2022, when the subject of the Ark Experience in Kentucky comes up. Again, it seemed like an exciting and harmless topic, and it was until one in the group had to add that they had also gone to the Creation Science Museum and how they were now proponents of a young earth; and how all this came from the mind of Dr. Ken Ham.

Who is Dr. Ken Ham?

According to Wikipedia, “Dr. Kenneth Alfred Ham is an Australian Christian fundamentalist, young Earth creationist and apologist, living in the United States. He is the founder, CEO, and former president of Answers in Genesis, a Christian Apologetics organization that operates the Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter. “

Apparently, Dr. Ross had encountered harsh criticism from several religious zealots within the scientific community. Two groups, the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and the Bible-Science Association (BSA), were the most vocal in opposition to what Dr. Ross began teaching in churches. In Dr. Ross's book Creation and Time, he details in chapter eight how Henry Morris, the founder, and president of ICR, stated that “The continued insistence on an ancient earth is purely because of the philosophic necessity to justify evolution and the pantheistic religion of eternal matter.” ⁱ

Dr. Ross, on page 82 of his book Creation and Time, writes,

“To John Morris, evolutionism is 'an unmitigated evil,” the philosophical root of “fascism, racism, Marxism, social Darwinism, and imperialism.” In his view, the “modern ills of promiscuity, homosexuality, abortion, humanism, new-age pantheism, etc.,” all “flower from the same evil root.” ⁱⁱ

Dr. Ross says, “in case any Christian fails to recognize the theorem, old-earth beliefs = evolutionism, evolutionism = unmitigated evil; therefore, old-earth beliefs = unmitigated evil. (John?) Morris calls the old-earth view “anti-Biblical” and “anti-theistic” and adds that “there can be no justification for a Christian adopting the old-earth concept.”

Dr. Ross goes on to say that “Henry Morris began to voice these opinions long before his son did. In a book entitled The Long War Against God, the elder Morris comments on social disintegration:”

“The failure of Bible-believing Christian churches and schools to aggressively defend and promote true biblical creationism [i.e., young- earth creationism] is a major cause of the takeover by evolutionary humanism of our entire society. ...” ⁱⁱⁱ

On page 83 of Dr. Ross's book Creation and Time, he conveys that “Dr. Ken Ham of the ICR makes similarly severe charges against old-earth creationists.” On pages 84 and 85, Dr. Ross tells us that Ken Ham's view is that “the old-earth view of creation destroys the basis of the Gospel message and the message of redemption.” ^iv

Dr. Ross points out that the Bible-Science Association agrees with Dr. Ken Ham's assertions by saying that [Old-earth] theology denies the central teaching of Christianity … and rejects the connection that scripture establishes between sin, death, and Christ's atonement. ...In [this] theology, death is natural. Death was a reality for millions of years before man ever arrived to sin. This leaves Christ's death on the cross as, at best, well-meaning, but besides the point.”^v

I am NOT an educated Theologian, and my experiences with a couple of Theologians have been less than pleasant. However, it feels as if I have been a Christian all my life, and until I was about 23 years old, I was content to have others tell me what the Bible says. I am now 68, and for 45 years, I have been reading the Bible on my own, asking God some hard questions, and learning about God's nature and character, yet I am always learning or having something revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. To have someone accuse me of being a false teacher simply because I can understand that the earth is old borders on blasphemy to me. Many of these young earth detractors are not content with merely calling us false teachers, even though I have never, in a group setting, attempted to teach an old-earth doctrine; I leave that to the scientists. But I have brought up the subject when I look up the Hebrew word rê'shı̂yth, which I find in Genesis 1:1, where it says, “In the beginning” God created. A simplistic read has my mind thinking that it was said and done. The problem is that the Hebrew implies “The first thing” God did. The logical approach is to assume that there would have been a second thing, and that is the direction the Jewish reader goes when reading Genesis 1:1. I would never have known that if I had not stopped to read with the intent to understand. The idea of an old creation is not new to me, but it has expanded how I look at the creation, and none of this diminishes what I know about God but magnifies His power and authority.

I posted this because it bothers me that we, the church think it is necessary to fling such caustic abuse at each other. I was raised in an environment where my religion was deemed better than yours. All this became more noticeable since 2020 and the lousy mask mandates. For me, this wasn't about some form of influenza, it was about forced mask mandates, and those mandates suddenly infiltrated a faith-laden church body.

A friend of mine persistently says, what would Jesus do?

I can tell you that He fearlessly touched lepers and others and healed them. Friends shunned my wife and I at church when we refused to wear a mask during worship, as Governor Newsome illegally ordered. One dear lady from church, which I had known for several years and always had horrific colon issues and was quite frail. Throw the mask issue into the mix, and suddenly she could not let you near her. But think about these actions and how we lived before the mask mandates, which are gone now unless you go into a medical establishment. You could have had any number of diseases, and how would any of us know it unless you are sneezing all over people, like the thoughtless person in the other line at Walmart who sneezed on several of us – that really happened before Covid.

Oh, by the way, I lost a brother to Covid. He got infected because an attendee at their small church came in one night, and my brother, one of the pastors, went to greet him. Unfortunately, the man had an active case of Covid and coughed on my brother and the other pastor. My brother, who had other health issues, did not recover.

I have given you information and names, not because you need to take torches and rakes and storm their bastions, but because you need to know that people that you deem to be solidly grounded and sane are highly capable of adopting bizarre, emotionally based, false teachings, and denounce you if you disagree. You need to get your head into your Bible and study to understand. Let's assume that you choose not to study the Word and, therefore, not make any changes in your life. Will you go to hell? No, but you will be fodder for a world gone mad and Satan's demons. Why would you want to go that route?

i Morris, Henry M., “Recent Creation Is a Vital Doctrine,” Impact 132 (June 1984), page iv.

ii Morris, John, “How Can A Geology Professor Believe That the Earth is Young?” page d.

iiiMorris, John, page d.

ivHam, Ken, “Billions, Millions, or Thousands – Does It Matter?” Back to Genesis 29 (May 1991), page b.

vBSA editors, page 12